At the outset, I want to make it clear that I am drawing a rigid distinction between the whore scene and the world of regular girls, and am discussing ONLY the former.
Well, I hardly know where to begin. Let me start by explaining how I understand the concept of whoring to function. Essentially this seems reasonable to me; the act of paying a whore frees you from the anxiety of rejection and from the necessity of making a serious social effort. To me, that is the entire point of whoring.
If I wanted to make a serious social effort, deploying the full force of my (considerable) charm and entire range of social skills, with the added thrill of never being certain of success, I would be hitting on regular girls.
Lets be honest. Even the hottest whores are not really as hot as many of the girls in the regular girl scene. We make sacrifices when we whore. We are willing to tolerate a slightly lower level of quality if it means being shielded from failure and rejection and being liberated from the burden of being always “on”. We are
willing to pay money to get this.
But in Thailand, things appear to have become hopelessly muddled. Go to the bars and there is every possibility of being rejected. If you hit on the better looking girls, there is every probability. And the rejections are often chillingly devoid of any consideration of your feelings or even dignity.
In short, these whores have ATTITUDE!
Whores with attitude, indeed! This subverts the entire rationale for whoring. Takes away all the fun and relaxation and re-introduces anxiety and effort and alertness. Completely destroys the beautiful thing that whoring can be in theory and replaces it with this hybrid monster combining some of the worst elements of whoring (cash) without eliminating the worst elements of hitting on regular girls! (anxiety, rejection, and social effort)
In short - WTF?!?!?!?!?!
Who is responsible for this ridiculous system? I guess that’s a stupid question, because the system is shaped by the underlying economic forces that govern it, like any system. As long as there is a glut of men willing to pay for the hottest whores, the whores are in control and pull the strings. In other words a dynamic almost identical to the regular girl world exists in the whore scene as well, thus almost reducing the incentive to whore and perverting this beautiful institution, which supposedly has its raison d’etre as an alternative to the regular girl scene, not as a perverse, vicious mirror image of it.
The better question is, whose needs then is this Alice in Wonderland Thai whore scene built to serve? Who does this work for? Well, for starters older farang men who would not be getting ANY girls at all in the regular girl world. Clearly such men can still benefit from this scene, although their choice is confined to the less attractive whores and they are effectively barred from the better ones.
Secondly Asian men of nearly ALL stripes, young or old or fat or ugly, seem to have a chance with the better whores (we all know the score on the whore preference for Asian guys, which by the way seems to exist all around the world for the same reasons, even with white whores. In a lovely little bit of universe-inversion, this preference doesn’t extend to the regular girl world for the exact SAME reasons it DOES exist amongst whores!)
Many farang guys are convinced they are getting the better whores in the bars, like Rainbow, etc - but they really aren’t. After spending extensive time in these bars and the after hours places I have quite simply never seen a farang with one of the really cute ones. Can’t say decisively it doesn’t happen, but it seems highly unlikely. What most guys don’t realize is that most girls choose you almost as much as you choose them, through eye contact, consenting to stand in your general vicinity, etc, etc - girls MAKE themselves available for your approach and encourage you to approach. A farang walks in to one of these bars and many of the cuter ones avoid eye contact or walk to other sections of the bar, thus when the remaining uglier girls pay attention the illusion of interest and choice is preserved. Some of the more astute farang are aware of this phenomenon.
Anyways the whore scene in Thailand follows its own peculiar logic and is designed in a way that makes it useless to a large chunk of the farang population. Seems silly, stupid. Is definitely annoying and frustrating.
But, c’est la vie! Just let no one tell me the Thai whore scene is “amazing”. It might be for Asian guys, or it
might be for truly desperate white guys. For everyone else, no. Sorry, but no.
That’s good satire.
View all comments by fender
Hmm. This certainly holds up for bargirls and freelancers, but less so for the massage/soapie scene, in which the customer simply points and says “I want that one”.
That said, there’s actually a lot to be said for the “attitude”. Sex with the girl who was trying to avoid you in the bar is rarely as satisfying as sex with the girl who was making eyes at you from the moment you walked in the door.
The girl who avoided you in a gogo bar is letting you know that the sex wouldn’t be very good. Whereas in a soapie, you can point at the prettiest one in the fishbowl, then only find out once you’re in the room that she’s only going to go through the motions…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Interesting point of view. Although I agree with the observations I don’t agree with the conclusion:
- Attitude: yes. But I think this is the reverse of the medal. The medal being that girls here gives usually much more that in other parts of the world, especially the West. And therefore you kind of need to deserve it. Fair enough.
- Asian men: true that they have good reputation and everything, but some girls have really no taste for asian men, as well as some girls have no taste for farangs. I’ve seen farang with stunning girls in the bars.
But more important than that: the thing you seem to miss (and I am kind of sorry for you) is that you don’t have sex the same way with a girl that you pay as with a girl you don’t pay. You can allow you quicker to very much more fantasies. Don’t mean that you couldn’t have them with a non working girl, but definitely not every time on the first night
View all comments by SukPsycho
BBB - You’re quite right that the best response to the “attitude” is to respect it, but doesn’t it suck that there has to be an “attitude” that we have to devise a best response for? I guess that’s my point. Yeah, we can make the best of a bad situation, but the situation is bizarre and sucks. Oh, and the “attitude” leads a very comfortable and cosy life in the models lounges of the bangkok massage parlors.
Suk - Hmmm, the girl gives more so I should give more (than just money, presumably). Some might call this a normal girl relationship just with money added upfront. To those not able to have a normal girl relationship this makes some kind of twisted sense, as I mentioned in my post. To those able to, what’s the point??? Why not just go with normal girls? (Also, some times it’s just about sex, ST, yet the same dynamics apply)
And I guess that’s my main gripe is that as someone still quite able to get normal girls, I looked to whoring as a fun and relaxing vacation from that world, a kind of floating world, a shadowy demi-monde where I could unwind and not care so much - I see tons of young, good looking Asian guys who could no doubt get normal girls turn to whoring as a kind of relaxed alternative. Before whoring went out of style in the West whoring as a non-serious leisure activity has a rich and storied place in fiction and Western culture in general. Instead, I wake up to the rude reality that whoring in Thailand is merely a harsh and glaring mirror image of the regular girl world, only with worse girls and me having to pay upfront.
So who does this work for? 1) Obviously the young smiling Asian guys who can use this scene exactly as whoring was meant to be used, as a relaxing leisure activity not to be taken too seriously and as a break from the world of regular girls, and 2) Farang guys who for some reason or other need money as the lubricant without which they would have little access to girls at all.
I fall into neither of these categories. Sucks for me and those like me!
And to address your final point about kinky sex, fair enough, but one, to me shame, I’m not really into kinky sex, and two, that still doesn’t make it worthwhile to deal with the bullshit in the bar scene, at least for me. But to each his own.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
Interesting post. Maybe a little extreme but I don’t think far off from reality. However I think a lot of what you describe is the go-go bar. I have been off the go-gos for years now. Apart from getting some drinks with buddies, ogling and chatting - the pulling from go-gos is pretty lame.
I also think the cost model is not there, the service is much lower and the other BS with mamasans and door guys is lame. Give me a place like Angels any day. 2100 all in. Great service, a massage, the full meal deal expertly done, no BS and smiles all around. Once again - you see mostly Asians in these places. Go figure.
I think the Farangs can pull the hotties at go-gos but I just don’t think there are a lot of hotties.
I also think the normal girls are MUCH hotter but tough to bed down, tough to get them to do it as many times as you want and sometimes the other baggage sucks.
However I think it is worth the try. This is the beauty in Bangkok. I mean do you ever really strike out? A night out with a hottie is still fun and if it does not lead to sex. Big deal. I hit a soapie or a massage joint. Similar to what a Thai guy would do anyway.
I think you hit on some points but I think this feeling is mostly indicative of go-gos but the massage scene and the freelancer scene holds plenty of promise.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
I’ve abandoned the GoGos years ago.I don’t need to be abused, insulted or taken advantage of when I go out for entertainment.
The entire Soi Nana is off limits except for my occasional sortie into the Big Mango for a burger.
I have been meeting some amazing women in the oil massage places though.
View all comments by Kilgore Trout
KT - thanks for the burger nod
what oilies are we talking about? Do share…
View all comments by sideshowBOB
I don’t fit in any of the categories you describe, but i still enjoy it. I’m 30, live here, have a semi-regular thai good girl gf, ~2 less regular giks, some friendly girls in gogo’s with which i enjoy spend time with, and i like to take my customer’s and friends for a night out in bangkok, be it in baccara on cowboy, the bed or the pent for example… As ssB pointed there is a lot of other layers and the beauty of it is the wide array of options.
When i was in Europe, i didn’t knew anything about the whoring world, and definitely wasn’t into it.
I don’t go out with the objective to score everytime. In the gogo’s i like to enjoy the view when there’s something nice to look at, then sometimes eye contact happens and there is the possibility of meeting a nice girl, but if it doesn’t, no problem, a good time can still be had.
About attitude, as bbb said, it’s a very good pointer, i like hotties but not so much that i can enjoy a starfish experience… So no hurry, travel around, and every now and then you can stumble upon a nice gem
View all comments by Louk
Oops, sorry, i didn’t include a conclusion ^^’
The point is, there are ways to enjoy it, other than throwing cash around, even if you’re not Asian… I like mine, but it’s surely not the only one.
View all comments by Louk
Sideshow - To some extent agreed. I agree it is worst in the go-gos but I see similar attitudes amongst the hotter whores in the massage parlors and freelancer scenes. I think in general the whore scene - as opposed to the regular girl scene - isn’t as great for farang as it could be and as many seem to believe it is.
But what really stunned me was the go-gos. I just expected a scene entirely different from what I found. It’s easy to get the impression they are the centerpiece and crowning glory of the Thai whore scene, but I guess they are really far from that. Even so, the atmosphere seemed so grotesquely remote from what I had ever understood whoring to be!
As you say, regular girls are way better but tougher. Whores are the perfect stop-gags until you get the regular girls, but when they are almost as tough as the regular girls (the hotter whores at least) in this bizarre whore scene, then that just leaves you with few good options.
It’s just incredibly ironic that I find the one thing Thailand is famous for, it’s signature industry so to speak, turns out to be far from the thing it is supposed to be and that everything led me to expect it was, and that in fact it is very nearly useless for me and I find my sexual habits and behavior essentially unchanged from back home (hitting mostly on regular girls because from a cost benefit analysis that makes most sense)! It wasn’t supposed to be this way - I had planned on living in a whole new sexual world
Alas, it isn’t to be, is it.
Oh, and what/where is Angels????????????
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
Louk - I hear ya, I’m learning to adapt
It’s just that the ‘net doesn’t prepare you well for what you find. I’m just venting my surprise!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
Hehe the situation was very different for me, i didn’t knew anything about thailand before getting a job here… So i discovered the thai blogs after spending some time here and after having being introduced to the scene by friends and customers… ^^’
View all comments by Louk
Interesting observation even if I can’t confirm or deny its accuracy. I am not the nuanced connoisseur you extended stayers have become, but for argument’s sake let me assume you are correct. Could this phenomenon be due then to a blurring of lines between the social and work environments and behaviors of these girls due to the pervasiveness of the practice? What I mean is that because in Thailand (or in parts more accurately) whoring is like the equivalent of bartending or waitressing in, say, here in the States. We’ve all had that rude bartender/waitress who approaches her job like she is doing you a favor, not like she chose it and is getting paid for it. Over here, whoring is still such a hidden thing and specialty service that the girl is forced to observe the expectations her client has. There is not an open market with an abundance of ‘consumers’ and ‘producers’ like in Thailand. In essence, it has become such a norm in Thailand that the girl no longer makes a distinct division between the behavior she uses while on THE job, at another service oriented job, or when just out with friends. It is so normal that that its only State side equivalent is the rude bartender or the like. She in fact acts like she is just out socially and makes the same decisions working as she would partying. Or it could simply just be that a few bad experiences with that obnoxious American or creepy German has ruined it for the whole bunch of us. My guess is that it is a mixture of both.
View all comments by tinx
CB: Have you moved there or are you just vacationing? And how did you form your pre-conception…research, word of mouth, etc? And what were your goals for your move/vacation? While we are at it….what is you saddest memory? What is your social security number and what is your take on the European religious turmoil and wars that ultimately Western secularization and the modern nation-state?
View all comments by tinx
I do agree that many farangs seem quite satisfied with girls that middle class Thai men wouldnt be seen dead with. But on the other hand, I have farang resident friends who have hooked up with super pretty Thai ladies.
I have had no difficulty getting the hottest girls to squire around, but I dont find them in go-gos…no way. The only compromise with Thai standards of beauty that I make is that I am not dead set on light skinned women…too many of my Thai and Chinese friends seems to think that light skin equals beauty. In fact because I enjoy dark skin it makes it easier for me to hook up.
If its just sex you are after though, dont worry too much about looks. The ugly ladies can make wonderful bed companions even though they may be slightly embarrassing to be seen with in Bangkok’s best venues e.g. the sporting clubs and galas.
View all comments by Simon
Tinx - What you say has some merit. There are probably multiple motivations converging here. Whoring is quite normal in Thailand, but nowhere near as ordinary and acceptable a thing as waitressing in America.
Part of the problem is that farang are not considered particularly desirable by whores (that doesn’t apply to normal girls, who have a whole different set of priorities) for a variety of reasons. Bearing that in mind, at the end of the day if you look at it from the whores point of view it really makes perfect sense. She’s hot, she can choose. Nothing can be simpler.
I can understand whores who prefer guys who aren’t hideous, but really most whores should be fine with any guy who is normal. The bar should be set at normal and unobjectionable in the whore world, in contrast to the regular world, of course. But if the bar is set much higher than that in the whore world, then it just defeats the purpose.
The point is that in order for the whore world to make sense as an alternative to the regular world, it needs to give you something the regular world doesn’t, some kind of value. I’m finding that for me, in Thailand, it doesn’t.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
Tinx, I’m here on a consulting project, briefly (hopefully). I read up on things before I came and spoke to people once here. Most of the info didn’t pan out. As for the rest, I’ll have my secretary fax you the relevant bio with added essays.
Simon - I’ve considered the uglies, but I just can’t quite bring myself to go that way. Don’t know why. To be honest the best of the go gos don’t seem that fantastic to me, and going any further down the scale just,mmmm, I don’t know.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
What a revelation! Look anywhere on the planet and what do you find -the “hottest” of any group has ATTITUDE and that goes for pretty much any group be they sports “personalities”, business entrepreneurs, TV chefs, artists of any kind, and yes even whores in Bangkok and generally the hotter they think they are the more attitude they have. I guess it depends on what you are looking for, what you decide is the “hottest” luckily each of us can decide what that is for ourselves. One of the most prolific posters here tells us that bargrilsrpeople2 and guess what he’s correct, they come in all shapes and sizes and with the complete range of attitude from piss poor to f****** fantastic, relax and find the ones you want to spend your time with.
View all comments by riodon
It seems we are over-analyzing this a bit. We are all so different in how we grew up so it’s impossible that we would all agree on this. It’s interesting you feel this way but of course many people will feel completely different about it all, like me.
For instance, I think the ‘attitude’ is healthy. I for one don’t like the soapy scene because it’s shooting fish in a fish bowl. Too easy. I need to at least have the illusion of breaking down a working girl with attitude and having a great time with her. Sure, it’s just an illusion but it works for me. When I get rejected or encounter a star fish, yeah that sucks, but it makes the successes even better.
The beauty of the p4p scene in Thailand is that it is so diverse and available. It’s been said MANY times that most of the time in p4p or non-p4p, you are paying for it. One could argue that p4p is cheaper in fact.
The bottom line is that there are so many young beauties available here and you can tailor it to your tastes. You can run multiple threads here very easily. A GoGo thread as Louk pointed out, a Soapy thread, an After Hours p4p thread, a before hours pick up a non-p4p in a disco thread, a 7-11 girl thread, etc.
I personally find it easier and more rewarding here in Thailand to run all of these threads. I disagree with your point that working girls are less attractive than p4p. I think the opposite in fact. I say this over and over, there are just SO many beauties here especially the one’s available for p4p. I don’t see how you can go wrong. Just season to your tastes.
View all comments by pmmp
I found you article interesting. But I think you got off on the wrong foot in the very first paragraph …. you are ascribing a rigid distinction between the whore scene and the world of regular girls where there really isn’t one. The difference in the two is merely a matter of detail. And likewise, the subversion of whoring of which you speak is a reflection of that difference in degree, not a distinction between the species. Ergo, the remainders of your conclusions are likewise compromised by this initial premise.
Humanity 101: Lesson 1: Males have always paid for it. One way or another, they have to pay. Whether it be money, material possessions, or simply a steady supply of meat on the table, males will pay for the “privilege” of female companionship.
Humanity 102: Lesson 3: In “evolved “ western society, the failure of the male to provide the expected payment so referenced during Humanity 101 can result in a VERY expensive consequence. One such example is a process is known as divorce. There are several more examples, such as palimony, which will be covered in Lesson 8 of this unit.
That is just HOW IT IS. Been that way since the first woman told some guy she would make him feel real damned good if he would climb that tree and get that apple. If you don’t like it, you just need to get over it. Even in the “equal rights”-US, the feminists don’t want to vacate the system.
These “whores” of whom you speak are people, too, and they are hardwired just the same as all other people. Their environment has influenced how they react to and interact with the world, yes, but they have the same wants and needs on the rudimentary level. I have seen over the past few days blurbs about how crazy these Thai gals are, but they are at large just a product of their environment, even if there is the exceptional crazy (as in all populations).
I did find your rationale for engaging “whores” interesting. You wrote:
“Essentially this seems reasonable to me; the act of paying a whore frees you from the anxiety of rejection and from the necessity of making a serious social effort. To me, that is the entire point of whoring.”
Pretty well stated. But I want to add, even as an old white guy, you can get the same thing in the US, perhaps not in the abundance, and perhaps not the overall quality (lot of pork over there!), if you have enough money and influence. (Funny how that money thing keeps coming up, isn’t it?) And I’m referring to “normal girls!” Even cute 25-30 year-olds. But these normal gals want something, too. Now it takes a bit more work because the environment there has imbued them with a different value system (lets get real cute and all it “paradigm set“) and a different set of definitions for life. It might not be P4P, STATEDLY, but it still has cost. And it COSTS MORE in the long run. You failed to mention that. So perhaps the old or young white guy that moves here or comes here to take advantage of the “amazing” whore scene is simply a realist who wants to dispense with the hypocrisy of it all and just get down to be basics of existence without the pretense. And is that so wrong?
I want to add one more thing before I go …. I agree with BBB 100%. I’m glad the system works as it does. I had much prefer to have a gal who is eager to please than one that only goes through the motions. AND, even as old as I am, I have had privilege to some of the finest of lookers, P4P and “normal” Thai women. It’s not the age, it’s not the money (that’s a given); it’s all in the attitude.
So BC, if you are not so happy with the scene here, might I suggest (I am not indicting you here, I don’t even know you) that you examine your own attitude and consider how these girls perceive YOU. Then perhaps you, too, can partake in and more thoroughly enjoy the beauty that is the LoS.
Regards,
Khang
View all comments by Khang
Sorry Cromwell, but if you wanted to find really hot girls in the gogos you couldn’t just jump on a plane. You needed a time machine.
View all comments by chrispin
@Khang. Nice! As for this:
“So perhaps the old or young white guy that moves here or comes here to take advantage of the “amazing” whore scene is simply a realist who wants to dispense with the hypocrisy of it all and just get down to be basics of existence without the pretense.”
Spot on.
View all comments by pmmp
I like the thrill of the chase. Going out to a regular club not knowing who you’re going meet or what’s going to happen. Nights get interesting real fast here in Bangkok especially after the girls have downed their share of whiskey (as I’m sure we all know) Hook up or not, its fun and usually the main reason for not hooking up at a regular club is because I was too shy or didn’t take initiative. There are always options out there and you’re never going to be stuck in a bar with a lot dudes. Hell my friends and I complain when we see 1 or 2 other farangs in bar. A lot different than across the pond and a lot more fun.
View all comments by bkk22
Funny. Observing that some hookers have attitude and that it’s possible to be rejected (i.e., not get the leg over). Well, is it possible that the hookers’ attitudes mentioned here might just be mutated reflection of the buyer’s own attitude thrown back at him? The attitude that the full force of “considerable charm and social skills” should definitively clinch the deal with one awesome Cloonyesque grin? In other words, might it be that even these hookers don’t like the presumption of ‘my shit don’t stink so drop your daks, bend over, get cunt-pummeled, and give thanks for your 2000?’ The ‘anxiety’ of being rejected by hookers - that’s funny.
View all comments by fanta
“The ‘anxiety’ of being rejected by hookers - that’s funny.”
Thanks, Fanta …. I tried to say the same thing, but it took me an entire page ….
Regards,
Khang
View all comments by Khang
I have to agree with PMMP on this one. Been to Thailand many times, more a regular of Phuket than BKK but i find that when you compare these beauties to the shit running around in some western countries, well it’s heaven on a stick. Mind you i would like the satisfaction of pulling a regular girl. But to me, at the moment the assortment of beauties availabe for differing prices is just too easy and fun. However, i may be moving to BKK permanently so that may change my perspective on things.
View all comments by Tails
‘Attitude’ is just an extension of the fact that the girls are working for themselves and have a choice. Of course it would be great if all of them made us feel like kings all the time, but we’re as free to take our dollar elsewhere as they are to say ‘no’ or jack up the price if we’re old, fat, sweaty, hairy, drunk, rude or anything else.
I wouldn’t have it any other way, and can only suggest that punters who have a problem with this head somewhere the girls are more impoverished and desperate.
View all comments by Combover
@ CB: my point is not that the girl gives more so you have to give more, but that it makes sense in a way that the relationship be different from the simple pay-and-go of the west. It has been probably better said in other comments following mine, but the idea is the same.
Regarding what I called “fantasies”, no need to imagine perversion or things like this. Take the threesome experience for instance, how long would it take to convince two non working girls to do it and still talk to you the next day?
View all comments by SukPsycho
Language? At the risk of being accused of taking the jelly out of someones donut, with the wealth of words we have at our disposal, surely the contemporary phrase “sex-worker” or similar could be used instead of the biblical value laden stuff.
As for the complaint being tossed around, ie that a woman might actually want or need something beyond the content of your wallet, beggars belief.
If you are of the opinion that beauty is only skin deep, but ugly is to the bone, have a look in the mirror. Would you have sex with the face looking back? One can only ponder what Frued might make of your response to that question.
It just might be that your fantasy is the girls nightmare, but at least she will be able to feed her kids.
JM
View all comments by Jerry Mander
Surely these are premonitions or portents of the end of civilization if not the the end of the world. What’s a self-respecting bloke to do when “Western Women” act more and more like “Eastern Whores” angling only for the contents a fella’s wallet and “Eastern Whores” presumptuously and illegitimately take on the attitudes of ‘normal girls’, get ‘attitude’, reject us and make us anxious just like “Western Women”? This is an abject mixing, blending and bleeding of categories whose prior integrity had held us in good stead mentally, socially and culturally. It shouldn’t be tolerated, but alas it’s now all …well…emasculating and dick-shrinkingly terrifying. Abject, so abject.
View all comments by fanta
Oh Jesus Christ!
Attitude? What about your Attitude. I guessing you’re projecting your experiences of the go-go scene as the norm. That what be a sample of ummm ONE. In your perfect world any PERSON who works in a bar would at the drop of a hat agree to follow you back to your troglodyte home. But No these PERSONS have a choice just like you have a choice to crawl back under the rock where you came from. Now I know you think Dam that Wentworth he’s just nasty and unhelpful but your wrong, just yesterday read I of the utopia that you envision so here’s the link………
http://absolutelybangkok.com/the-thai-forest-brothels/#more-2434
When you get there make sure you go for a hottie and be sure to let us how it all went.
View all comments by Wenthworth
I see you’re holding a BIG chip on that shoulder of yours.
Which girl was it at RB IV that wouldn’t go with you?
Over time, you may learn to let such rejection go much as rain drops cascading down your skin eventually makes its way to the ground.
And more better, after the pain subsides, you may come to embrace such rejection for a man should surely not have EVERYTHING he desires.
And I see no one mentioning a (the) SALIENT point here.
In theory, it may be possible to bed a “good” girl.
However, the SEX will (in all likelihood) be geometrically better with a paid partner that you have clicked with (in others words, a paid partner whom you have not called a “whore”).
…to the extent good sex is important to you.
View all comments by jack dawson
How vary dare a whore not want to sleep with you Cromwell. How dare she indeed! If ever a whore rejects me (well……..the ONE time i got rejected) I put it down to the obvious fact shes a raging lesbian.
I dont see why guys are shocked a hooker might not want to go with them. If you get knocked back, no great shakes. Move on. Plenty to go round.
For those of you who do get rejected and go home alone - heres a handy tip for you while your sobbing in bed alone….. While wanking, press your belly button in and upwards towards tyour chin. gives you a sensation like when your on the swings in the park, or go over the crest of a hill too fast. And then, as your about to get your jester shoes, lean forward like your trying to kiss your knees!
You will never need a hooker again. Just put your thank you money in the collection jar at the mango
View all comments by Young Penfold
“Even the hottest whores are not really as hot as many of the girls in the regular girl scene.”
I don’t buy this. Too many devastatingly hot, light-skinned Bangkok and Chiang Mai girls are in the soapie scene. I assume they’re in the online/DTC scene as well, but I haven’t indulged. They’re in the hostess clubs too, which is fringe-p4p.
It’s been said in this thread that whoring is Thailand is much more of a job, ala bartending or waitressing, than in the U.S. I think this is true, and, in fact, is key to having a great time with the girls. If you realize that they’re young girls who want to have fun, but also have a job to do and need to earn, and treat them accordingly, you’ll be fine. If you’re no fun (in the eyes of the TG) and have no money, you’re SOL. If you’re fun but have no money, you have a chance. If you’re no fun but have money, you have a better chance. If you’re fun and have money, practically all doors (and legs) are open to you.
Some facts, as I see them:
1. Thailand has a 3rd world economy that has its issues with efficiently and legitimacy;
2. Beauty and/or sex is much easier to monetize than in the West, due to the extensive p4p scene;
3. The p4p scene may be stigmatized, somewhat, but MUCH less than in the West, so barriers to entry are low;
4. The country’s culture is non-judgmental/Buddhist/mai bpen rai/etc (this one’s speculative and anecdotal; I don’t really purport to know the true inner dynamic of, say, a Thai family unit or non-expat society in general, though I do have some insight due to my circumstances), and EXTREMELY sexist.
This means that if you’re a girl in Thailand and you’re lazy (mai bpen rai attitude) or have bad non-p4p prospects (poor economy + sexist society), the pressure is very high to turn your physical assets into cash, and it’s very easy to do so. The pressure is even higher if your family is dirt poor and you’ve got a way to help them (poor economy). The prettier and more externally refined you are, the more avenues of earning are open to you.
There’s also psychology in the mix: we’re raised to look down on whores & whoring, so they appear less attractive, and we want what’s unobtainable/harder to get, so regular girls appear more attractive. If you put them side-by-side and didn’t know who was the whore and who wasn’t, I’ll bet perceptions change. I know this happens to me, 100%. There’s a heirarchy of who we’d like to bang that’s completely decoupled from beauty: in a vacuum, we’d rather bang the uni girl than her twin sister coyote than her other twin sister gogo dancer.
From our point of view, of course, it doesn’t matter. Hotness/beauty/sexiness is subjective. And thank God it is, or I’d have NEVER gotten any non-p4p action.
View all comments by fender
- Thai barladies have ugly facial features and flat bodies and those dumb farangs think they are beautiful. So I wonder what those ladies in their home-countries must look like;
- When u see a farang with a Thai lady walking hand-in-hand then nine out of ten times the lady is uglier than the farang;
- So I wonder how desperate these poor dudes are;
- In Singapore many Thai p4p-ladies avoid farangs because farangs have big cock.
One advise to u farang bros: don’t think too much. Just pay the money, fuck and go home. It’s nothing more than a business-deal. Don´t think anybody likes you. They only need ur money. If you wouldn’t have the money, then you would see some real faces.
View all comments by Ato
Of course I’m always better looking then the whores I bang. I’m fucking handsome! So handsome I once jerked off to a picture of myself, and liked it!
View all comments by Mr Right
@ Went and JD: Calm down lads. No need to get personally offended by a fellow’s observation. A little civility makes these forums much more productive.
@ Ato: It is nice to get a little local perspective. A much needed reality check.
@ Mr. Right: I have that same problem. The mirrors in my bedroom are so I can see myself during the action. Here is a vid of me getting pulled over:
http://www.break.com/index/too-super-cool-for-his-ticket.html
View all comments by tinx
MrR: Just once? I’ll fuck ugly once. How handsome can you be?
View all comments by fender
Touché .
How handsome am I? Handsome enough that when I was 19 and down on my luck I charged 1000$ long time. Cratering to women only of course.
I always assumed the ones with the most attitude have several sponsors and are more likely strutting around in front of there friends. Being the most accomplished of the bunch. Either way someone call the whambulance.
View all comments by Mr Right
Thanks for the comments! Some were illuminating, others less so, and all provided me at least with some measure of insight into this situation, even the self-evidently defensive and angry denials and denunciations (lacking in any sense of irony, by the way), which helped me understand better how important this scene is to many and how little attacks on it are appreciated by some. Criticize the whore scene to a bunch of mongers who have grown to depend on it, and really, what sort of response do I expect
But thanks for the more thoughtful responses.
Just a few points. Yes, farang can get the better whores, although MOST cannot. Some can. But with EFFORT. If you’re gonna expend effort, might as well go to the regular girl scene, unless of course, you can’t. Expending effort (I mean making a serious and real attempt to make her like you…..so she’ll kindly consent to take your money) on a whore just isn’t getting value for money. In fact, it’s degrading and demeaning, and if you don’t see that, I would say that you left your dignity at home when you came to Thailand, as sadly, many farang seem to have done. Demeaning yourself in front of a prostitute and allowing a dynamic to be created where you are in the inferior position, where you are the supplicant, is something best left to guys who simply can’t get laid any other way. NO Asian guy would do this, they barely make the slightest effort, watch them next time you get a chance. Indifferent, regal, accepting tribute and dispensing favors, kindly and benign but receiving attention rather than giving attention - THAT is how you are supposed to whore!
(For the irony impaired I am not being ENTIRELY serious here…_ Charming and seducing a regular girl is, however, NOT demeaning, because the transaction there is primarily between desirable personal qualities, emotional affection, and pleasure for both parties, NOT money.
To be clear, I am NOT saying you should be mean or unfriendly to whores. You should be EXTREMELY kind and friendly. But it is HER job to make it FUN for YOU! That guys here are defending the need to make it FUN for the whore (!) already says so much about what is crazy here and really makes me shake my head. Should I cook my prostitute breakfast in bed the next morning as well, or I can expect a refusal to go with me? It really also explains why you hear so many stories about guys getting played by these girls. The girls clearly perceive that many guys relinquish the position of control which is their natural role in the whore/customer relationship, and give the girl the position of superiority, and naturally exploit it. As long as this continues the “attitude” will not be dying any time soon.
I am sure some people find the above “arrogant” and a “chip on my shoulder” - yep, refusing to demean myself before prostitutes and accept a role as suppliant and inferior is no doubt, to some, having a “chip on my shoulder”. This is the effect Thailand can have on the psychologically fragile.
I think my central point still stands, though. 1) The Thai whore scene only works for certain categories of people and is useless for many 2) It’s a distortion of what a whore scene can and should be, properly conceived. It imposes demands and strains that make it pointless for certain categories of farang to patronize whores rather than trying their luck with regular girls.
For me it’s useless, I am infinitely better served in the regular girl world where for the same amount of effort and emotional strain (and chance of success) I can get better, hotter girls. For many here the whore scene remains great and that’s wonderful.
I just think there needs to be a greater awareness of what the Thai whore scene is, how it differs from what many would think a whore scene is, and what sort of purpose it is best suited to serve.
It would have been nice to hear from other farang guys in my position who have also come to the same conclusion, but c’est la vie!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
When it coms to handsomeness, that was settled here in the first major on-line handsomeness poll, where I came second to Werewolf. So I am handsomer than you, whoever you are, unless you’re Werewolf, and I have been rejected by just two hookers, out of a total of, oooh, a lot. Unlike BBB, I don’t click a counter on my belt. One was upstairs at Baccara. She indicated the other girls with the clear implication I’d do better looking at anyone else but her. Fine. I did. The other was a freelancer hanging around the Golden Bar in the small hours. Being given the big freeze by a streetwalker is pretty funny. I turned my head and struck up a lasting and meaningful relationship with another, hotter piece of work. Attitude? Who cares? I’m not about to get all pouty that BEW-HEW-HEW-HEW they don’t LIKE me! There is ALWAYS someone hotter on the next corner, in the next bar, in the next ten minutes. In Bangkok, you could strike out nine times out of ten and still get laid three times a night.
As to the starfish phenomenon - the best way I’ve found of dealing with this is to manhandle her like she’s the most realistic sex doll in the world. Just put her body, limbs and head in exactly the position you want (a mirror helps) and TELL her not to move. Then change her position, as often as you want. Lift her up and put her over the chair, the table, all the time saying “don’t even fucking LOOK AT ME, bitch!” or some other intimate term of endearment. This is a real turn-on (for you - for her - who cares?) If she starts to resist, you’re already out of starfish mode, and go where it takes you!
(This comment has been funded by The BBK Educating The Clueless Masses Institute)
View all comments by Pants Elk
Double dip - nice to see Ato taking time out from his insect cart to vent his spleen here instead of into the week-old oil he fries the day’s mattress-catch in.
View all comments by Pants Elk
Pants Elk, you are one funny dude, and I enjoy ALL your comments. Good attitude, too! Im glad you’re happy with the Thai whore scene
I have NO desire to make anyone any less happy with something they like and enjoy, either - BKK needs more happy farang and less bitter ones!
You mistake my attitude, certainly isn’t BWA-BWA because whores reject me (whores reject all farang who go for the hotter ones, I’ve seen it a million times however strongly some people want to deny it. This illusion of not being rejected is addressed in my original post. But anywyas), it’s more a rueful DAMN, it would be cool to have a whore scene that worked the way it wwas supposed to for ME!
But life isn’t like that. I understand WHY, no biggie. In the meantime, regular girls is the way to go for me, and while it takes effort it’s been pretty good!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
all this talk makes me wanna head to BKK hahaa, and I’ve been there 3 times already this year and countless time over past years. I live in a neighbouring country so I could go to BKK at a price of only a full tank of gas or less hehehh.
interesting facts about Asian men. as one myself I found it both a blessing and a curse. almost everyone there thought i was Thai! everywhere i go, 7-11, MP, gogo,taxis, restaurants…dammit!
so as i strolled along cowboy where usually you see the girls outside trying to pull men inside, i was left alone untouched (sob). of course this only happens if i’m walking alone. i might think that bargirls think that thai men have no business being in a gogo or that they don’t have as many money as westerners, japs etc…that was the first few times…
once they get to know me and that i’m not from around, i found myself surrounded by semi-naked giggling girls. one time they even kept me inside until closing hours so i could accompany them for drinks afterwards. i don’t mind cos i’ve nothing better to do hehehh. i remembered that night, i think every girl in the bar took turn to sit on my lap huhuhh, i mean i was there like 3 hours or more! and one girl even cried when she knew that i’m flying back the next day..and i haven’t even slept with her! no offense guys, but from what i experience again and again, they see westerners as a way of making money and guys as myself could be approachable as a friend. over the years i’ve made lots of friends in BKK from the night scene, it feels just like home
yes, i do spend money on these girls but sometimes they insist that they pay for the cab and drinks etc when we go out. do i pay BF? yes i do if i wanna take a girl out before closing time. after closing hours, i don’t have to pay a single cent. do i pay the girls afterwards? they didn’t ask for it but i usually give them 500 or 1,000bht for “shopping”. but this is only for girls that i know for sometime. and yes i do get freebies from time to time (thats what friends are for LOL). this one girl wanted to follow me to my room as we head out from a local bar at 5 am, i refused cos i don’t want to pay her but she insisted that no money will be exchanged so i took her word for it. turns out shes pretty tired and fell asleep almost instantly. but then it was a morning to remember!
so i admit, i’m a whore when i’m in BKK hahahaa.
View all comments by mrsmokiee
I think you’re pulling our leg. I’ll play along, though. Maybe you just have a huge blind spot.
I think the problem you’re having is that you’re confusing a specific subset of of prostitution (GFE or PSE pulled out of a bar, maybe) with whoring in general. You walk into a gogo, and, 99% of the time, you can fuck any girl you want. Go to Rawhide and pick out the A-list showgirl you think is the hottest. Give the mamasan 100 baht and tell you you want to barfine the showgirl s/t. Out the door you go to your s/t hotel. You may get a starfish. You may get attitude. But you’ll get laid. If you don’t want to charm her or make her like you, tell her you’ll give her some extra baht if she acts like she likes you.
Go Emmanuelle or Caesars or Poseidon or Victoria or anywhere else at 8:00 and you can fuck any girl you want, 100% of the time, no attitude, no starfish. You can sit there and stare at them and make mean faces and scratch your balls and sniff your fingers and point to one with your ball-sweaty finger, then ignore her all the way to the room, and she’ll still pretend that you’re the man of her dreams and you make her cum her brains out. You don’t have to demean yourself by trying to be fun, not one bit!
Go to an after-hours FL bar, and spot the hottest girl who’s not talking to a guy and who doesn’t look happy and isn’t dancing. Know why she’s unhappy? ‘Cause she got no customer. Ask her if she wants a customer. Offer her a decent price, not a low-ball. Wow, suddenly she’s really happy, because now business is good, all because of you!
The essence of whoring, “properly conceived”, is still money for honey. Phony affection costs more, but so does lighter skin, and you may have to pay a tax if you’re heinous and smelly and unpleasant to sit next to. But go to a bar and spread some baht around (like the Asian guys do, btw), and see how friendly and attentive the girls get. You can be as indifferent and regal (LOL) as you want.
Maybe you don’t like spending the money? Maybe you want welfare whoring, or would like the government to hand out whore stamps? If so, then you’re right, the p4p scene does, in fact, NOT work for you, and you’re better off trying to charm the panties off of a “regular girl” who’s not expecting to be paid cash for her gash.
View all comments by fender
Flat out wrong on the “older farang me” In fact, just look around, (if you go to the better spots) and you will see that the guys with the top Thai girls are the older, but distinguished looking farang men who treat the women with respect and upscale experiences.
Naturally for the older fat, sweaty, slobs can only get the the dreqs from the Soi 7 Beer Garden but don’t lumpt them together with the smooth, sophisticated, well dressed 50 and 60 yesr old man of the world.
Such is my observation.
View all comments by 8 Ball
Fender, my good man, you’ve gone straight to the heart of the problem. What you say is exactly at the heart of the issue and illuminates everything by being simply NOT TRUE! What you describe is to some extent at least how it SHOULD work, but doesn’t.
Go to the bars with the hottest girls, and I’m sure we all know which ones they are in both Nana and Cowboy, and you as a farang will have little to no chance with about 60% of the girls. They want Asian men. Not only won’t they GO with you, most of the time if you somehow find it in you to look past the obvious lack of interest in you they will REFUSE to sit with you. You would think at the absolute minimum, really a minimum, a policy of the girls at least sitting with anyone who calls them over for one drink, at least, to avoid loss of face, would be nice, but no. I have SEEN - multiple times - farang customers calling girls over and being REFUSED. I’m not even talking about the girls generally ignoring you, it’s even if you make the first move.
I’ve gone with whores from these places who had never been with farang before - I actually had to “hit” on them, this was before I decided it just wasn’t worth it, and these girls after having become friends will tell you that most of the pretty girls - i.e, those with options, won’t go with farang, for reasons that make a great deal of sense looked at from a whore’s POV. (size, money, etc). Go to Baccarra one day and just sit outside - you will see the supposedly hotter (although these days pretty ordinary) “door girls” pretty much ignore almost ALL farang while running after almost every Asian guy. It’s educative, and quite funny.
There are some reasons why you might not realize what’s really going on which I addressed in my original post, but this is the truth - we can deny it, but it’s how it is. See the last few paragraphs of my original post about how this particular illusion works. It’s subtle.
SOME of the massage places are good, some are not so good in this respect. The models lounge girls CAN choose, and can very publicly REFUSE you. It’s happened. Usually it doesn’t get to that because the natural human approach is to make eye contact and try to establish some kind of “rapport”, however fleeting and vague, with your choice before you take here, and if a particular beauty is pointedly, with set face, refusing your eye contact, it’s easy to psychologically pass her by, barely realizing what has just happened and that you’ve been rejected. This usually works, but try really paying attention and see who gives you attention and who doesn’t and how this affects your own “choices”! And try choosing a girl who refused eye contact, it’s a risk, in short.
I WISH it were as you described it! And I’m trying to wrap my head around the fact that it isn’t
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
BigBabyKenny and I were enjoying a schooner of Thai wine at Lord Baron Towers the other night, each of us dressed in velvet-look smoking jackets and knee-breetches, debating this very subject raised by 8 Ball, that of the “distinguished looking farang men who treat the women with respect and upscale experiences.” We’d just attended one of Old Asia Hand’s legendary soirées in his rooms, where he’d entertained us with a Magic Lantern Show of his escapades at the NEP (then a rustic grouping of palm-leaf huts surrounding a clear pool where willing nymphets froliced for a few glass beads or a shard of mirror). The nature of the “upscale experience” when it comes to fucking whores is an arcane subject only vouchsafed to those who appreciate the subtleties of Spy Wine Cooler Sex - a mystic brotherhood of sexual aesthetes who eschew the vulgar humping of the common herd in order to appreciate something on a higher plane altogether. Yes, quality fabrics come into the “upscale experience” equation. Yes, a relaxed bout of karaoke to ascertain how good your choice will be in the sack, followed perhaps by a mood-setting session listening to “The Thousand Pianos Of Kenny Aldridge Play Todays Hits - And More!!!’ on the 8-track. And yes, the final touch - a pyramid of Ferrero Rocher chocolate-flavoured comestibles brought up to our lavish PB Hotel suite by trusted body servant Ato. All these elements combine to ensure our whores get a truly upscale experience. I pity you - the little men out there, the fat, the undistinguished - who have not our subtle abilities and appreciations of nuance that turn a sordid twenty minutes of draining down bodily fluids into an experience on a par with Charles Dance reading one of those great poems by Mozart set to the music of that modern master, Jean-Michel Jarre.
View all comments by Sir Jeremy of Warwickshire
It seems to me that some of you want to find miss right, hold hands and walk down primrose lane. This is Thailand, it for the most part doesn’t happen here. It may for some local but you can bet your last five Baht the chance of that happening for you is nil. Honey says no to you, so what, look 1 degree to the left or right and there will be one that will say yes. Make a list of the ones you want, at least five, pencil them in what turns you on, then hit on #1 if she says no, go to 2, trust me, you will never get to five. Be sure to tell #1 that she is off your list, move the rest up and find a couple of replacements that suit your fancy. Come on boys this isn’t rocket science! If your ego is that fragle, that a woman turns you down, you got bigger problems than you have let on!
View all comments by The Man
@Crom: After that last comment I am a little annoyed that I wasted time reading this Post. You are obviously trying to wind people up. Thanks for wasting our time. Turning the channel…
View all comments by pmmp
@CB: I’m now convinced that you are either trolling, lying or hideously unappealing. You really find that you have “little to no chance with about 60% of the girls”?
If true, it sounds like you’re doing something dreadfully wrong, and that it’s keeping that 60% well away from you.
A follow-up piece would be interesting once you’ve figured out what it is that you’re doing wrong - if you can tone down the superiority complex.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Perhaps ladyboys are the answer for those concerned with the knockback. Taller, better looking, paler skin and eager cumslut whores for anyone with a fistful of baht willing to leave the squeamishness at reception. Hmm..knockback or tummy sticks, knockback or tummy sticks…?
View all comments by Combover
Fair enough, pmmp, I hear what you’re saying, and while I’m not a troll, the truth is shortly after writing this piece I regretted sending it because I realized I couldn’t really expect any positive outcome and the whole thing was pretty useless as a topic for discussion. Being a bearer of bad news is never popular.
It is what it is; those farang who are blind to the reality will scarcely want their eyes oepened, they have built lives or vacation routines in Thailand and a great deal of their happiness is invested in seeing things a certain way, and I really don’t want to make any one one less whit less happy. If you guys are cool with the reality that’s all that matters. As I said to Young Penfold, Thailand needs more happy farang and the people on this site are without question some of the more cheerful and optimistic writing online about Thailand, and that’s refreshing.
It would have been cool to hear from people in my position, but that demographic doesn’t seem to be represented on this site.
Anyways, cheers for the discussion.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
cb - the reality is you just don’t understand the scene. My take is you are way to go-go focused for one. Let’s say you are here to chase normal tail. Wow. What a great place for it. I think apart from Japan - one of the best in Asia. Way better than China, HK or Korea in my opinion.
So what is it you are struggling with?
Then apart from the real scene the tweener and part time p4p scene is also awesome.
go-gos mostly suck. for me though. this is all opinion though - right? Seem many do not quite agree with your opinion but I think u harshly stated it and seem to think the scene for you is exactly how it is for others.
It is not.
The scene reacts to the individual. That is the beauty of this place.
anyway. skip the go-gos
try angels.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
@ssB: Amen.
@CB: Your reality is not my reality. That doesn’t mean that one of us is wrong. It means we have different experiences. I have never been in a p4p bar where 60% of the girls are not interested in me. But I have been in several where I am not interested in 90%+ of the girls.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
I don’t get anything troll-like or “superior” in Cromwell’s original piece or his comments. I just find it all jaw-droppingly unbelieveable. In spite of my facetiousness, I’m not a great-looking guy and I’m definitely no longer in my twenties. Or thirties. Or forties. But I have pulled the hottest girls in R4 and other bars with no problems at all. Really. *That* one you’re probably thinking about right now. About 38k, sillied-up hair, totally fucking gorgeous. And the four or eight others like her from the A-team. How did I manage this amazing feat? I’ll let let you in on my secret. Not by referring to my bound edition of BigBabyKenny guides. Just by looking up at her from the rail and saying “Oi! Wanna go with me?” Nothing more mysterious than that. I prefer to leave out the lady drinks and the table talk, unless, as has happened, they come over and drape themselves over me for a while. I cannot conceive of a younger, better-looking man being ignored by a whopping 60% of the shuffling ranks of nuden-eaters on display. I’m wondering if this whole Cromwell thing isn’t a kind of reverse-psychology anti-prostitution polemic written by either a vegetarian or, worse, a woman. But I do cordially invite him to an evening on the town with me (and maybe a few others - Weredog?) on or around Dec 14, during which I guarantee he’ll be laid like concrete on an interstate highway. Whether he wants to be or not.
View all comments by Pants Elk
@Crom: ssB is convinced you are for real so on the chance that you are not winding us up and actually believe what you are writing I will offer an apology here for dismissing you.
What you said about not having a chance with 60% of the hotter girls and that they want Asian men instead just seemed like you were trying to get a reaction from the many non-Asian men bloggers here. It’s way off base otherwise.
I’ve also NEVER been refused a sit down request and I’m no looker, and I have asked many times so I have quite a large sampling. I’m sure it happens but there are other reasons why it might happen besides “attitude”.
Also, every time I walk past Baccara we are waved in and sometimes they try to drag us in. Always. That’s their job. There are two floors and they want all types of customers.
Your facts are so different than what I’ve experienced and your attitude and claims are so contrary to mine that I naturally assumed you were winding people up.
I am around this every day and have met hundreds of Punters. Not one of them has shared your opinions overall, in bits maybe, but not nearly so extreme as to call it uselessness. There may be a peculiar insanity of the scene but it’s “uselessness to many” is way off. Perhaps the title of your Post should be amended to “uselessness to me”.
BTW, you’re not a bearer of bad news, more like a pathetic fool who can’t find enjoyment in this wonderful p4p world that so many of us have.
BBB is right that you have a superiority complex. If people don’t see it your way, they are blind. Chill dude, it’s not that complex. There are a ton of hot young thai girls out there, enjoy them. The p4p scene is packed with Punters wanting more every night. How come it doesn’t work for you? I have no idea.
View all comments by pmmp
BBB- I’d say that’s true about 90% of the gogos.
CB- I don’t think it makes much sense for you to say that we’re living in an illusion and you’re here to offer us the red pill. This ain’t the Matrix. Your Thailand reality sounds pretty sucky, but there’s a lot of fun to be had if you let yourself have it. Relax and enjoy.
ssB- mmm, Angels.
View all comments by fender
SB - Yeah, I hear that, I’ve actually already eliminated the go go’s, they are for sure the worst. The scene is indeed much better in other venues. It’s good to hear that one other person at least is similarly disenchanted with the go go’s! The other venues are way better, although still (again, only for me, clearly not for many) not enough to function as a counterpart to the regular girl world.
I did acknowledge that the scene might work for other people, though, just not people in my position. But yes, to each his own, that I couldn’t agree with more. My intention was not to write about this “harshly”, although I suppose the opinion I expressed was in itself harsh!
The funny thing is, chasing girls I can do anywhere. What WAS supposed to be amazing and distinctive in Thailand, in terms of variety, ease of access and use, was the whore scene. I have found it otherwise, for the reasons stated, but again, that’s just me - it’s totally cool that others are happy within it. People are different, in their desires, and in their position in life.
I guess, insomuch as my original post had a point at all, it was merely to highlight the irony of a whore scene designed in a way that eliminates all incentives to use it instead of hitting on regular girls, for a certain demographic of farang (I admit, not for all farang). At the end of the day, though, my premise was entirely flawed - the whore scene is not “insane” at all, peculiarly or otherwise, it follows a well-defined and perfectly reasonable logic. It just doesn’t “work” for a certain demographic in its current incarnation. I neither expected this nor do I welcome this, but that’s life.
I’m here for work and won’t be here for that much longer, so none of this is reallly that life altering.
Anyways, cheers!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
@Crom: “At the end of the day, though, my premise was entirely flawed - the whore scene is not “insane” at all, peculiarly or otherwise, it follows a well-defined and perfectly reasonable logic. It just doesn’t “work” for a certain demographic in its current incarnation. I neither expected this nor do I welcome this, but that’s life.”
Well said, thanks. I take back the “pathetic fool” comment
View all comments by pmmp
@CB: I just don’t get what you are so surprised about, or how this is in any way ‘peculiar insanity’. In any commercial relationship, better customers get better deals. When a supplier has plenty of customers, and lots of high margin business, it helps greatly to consider what constitutes ‘better’ in the eyes of the supplier.
It might be a higher price, or it might be ease of service, or it might be repeat business, or prompt payment, or a combination of those and many other factors.
If you’re looking to buy a top-notch product from a tier 1 supplier, you’ll inevitably have to tick a few of these boxes. If Rainbow group showgirls and their ilk believe that Asian guys tick more of these boxes then fair play to them. Others target affluent looking older western guys, others target hot young fellas, others target guys who can supply them drugs. Like it or not CB, it sounds like you need a USP.
View all comments by Combover
OMG. That sounded like Kenny. It really ain’t that complicated. I shall retire and take a long hard look at myself.
View all comments by Combover
CO- CB needs a gun?
View all comments by fender
Pants Elk - Sure, I’ll go to the Rainbows with ya’. Lets see for ourselves how it goes. Let ME pick the girls for us to approach, though
SB - Thanks. I really wasn’t trying to rile anyone up - I don’t really know what I was trying to do other than offer a few observation, not even fully thought out. It’s true I said the whores like Asian men, but I also clearly said the regular girls don’t have a particular preference for non-Thai Asian men, to the point where they will go for fat, old Asian guys over young farang (and I do believe the whores will). In fact when I go out with my Japanese friends they get no special treatment in the regular girl world over me! That’s part of the reason it’s so jarring for me to transition to the go go’s. But I certainly wasn’t trying to rile up anyone in that way.
I respect the fact that our experiences differ, and that most punters don’t report it like me either. That’s absolutely true, even from my casual conversations with people. I also believe you that you’ve never been refused a sit-down. I HAVE, I can tell you. Part of the reason, I believe, is due to a very peculiar psychological feature of this situation - most guys instinctively won’t go to the girls that don’t respond to them with eye contact, etc, and that the impression is left in the punters mind that he never wanted the girl in the first place, but really wanted the one who was super friendly to him. I think if you pay attention to this phenomenon you might see something you didn’t expect. Again, you might not. I might be very, very wrong, and I don’t want to get too deep into that aspect of it.
About the “blindness”, I don’t think people are blind just because they don’t agree with me, I think that there is a very particular mechanism (just described above) at work here that might lead people not to notice what I have. I wanted to throw some light on that. But I freely admit I might be wrong and that others might be right.
And I never said it was useless to EVERYONE - I made clear that it was only useless to “many”. Perhaps better would be only to a “few”
But you’re right, the scene in Thailand as a whole ISN’T bad by a long stretch - in fact I am finding the regular girl world “amazing”!
But look, again,
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
Combover - you’re absolutely, 100% right in your post above (the one before the Kenny one). I did admit that after thinking it through it makes perfect, total sense, it just caught me by surprise that the chips would fall in precisely that way. Come on, I’m sure it’s counterintuitive to find that it’s easier to get regular girls than whores (hot ones)! That’s not what anyone expects (or finds, apparently, expect for me!)
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
@CB: One last point - I’m assuming you’re caucasian? Thailand *is* a racist country, and if you were Indian or African then your experiences would make a little more sense - not that it’s in any way justified, but in that many girls have decided that they “no like India man”, for whatever misguided reason.
Otherwise, yes - please do hit the gogos with Pants, or with any number of other readers. I think you’ll be surprised, and I doubt there’ll be any shortage of volunteers.
Last point - the girls appreciate fun. It’s a dull job, and if they can find a customer who’ll allow them to have a little more fun then they will. The guy with the big cheesy grin who’s flirting and buying drinks usually looks a better prospect than the guy scowling in the corner because his “dream girl” hasn’t made eye contact.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
@CB
The only person who could be in your position (60% outa reach indeed!) would be Joseph Merrick - perhaps there’s some way in which there’s a resemblance?
View all comments by fanta
@BBB - Yep, Caucasian here! It’ll be hard giving up scowling in the corner, but I’ll try
As for the racism thing, I get that Thailand is racist, but I expected whores to be less racist than the reg G’s??? Hmmmmmm, maybe whores have a particularly vulnurable social position so they play it even safer by sticking to Asian guys. I wonder. Whores I’ve spoken to say it’s mostly about size and perceived willingness to pay, though.
Anywyas, I will continue expermenting.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
fantat - really, I promise you, I’m probably in the top 10% of unobjectionable looking farang in Thailand
I never thought unobjectionable looking was something to aspire to until coming here, lol.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
Dang Fanta, just when we were starting to make our way to compromise, consensus and reconciliation. Well, maybe he’s got an elephant dick. That’d explain the 60%: the only ones who could handle his girth are the cows with the floppy beavers.
View all comments by fender
@fender: I can use a gun right about now
@CO: Well said. BTW, guys with combover’s are pathetic fools
@PE and Crom: I would like to join this group if possible. GoGo’s are wonderful places but mostly for the pure enjoyment of watching beautiful young thai girls scantly clad or naked dancing by a pole, and for scratching a short time itch. It’s a short time factory for the most part. The only groups I have seen excluded from this are Arabs, Africans, and Indians. Some GoGo’s won’t even let these groups through the doors. Total bullshit and very wrong imo but it does happen. Crom, if you are not in this group then it’s shooting fish in a barrel. I’m reminded of what Cactus John said to me once. I was in Cactus and none of the girls would even look at me. He said something along the lines of “just pick the one you want”. It’s that simple most of the time.
Woops, I see that BBB covered this already. One more thing Crom, don’t believe anything these sex workers tell you. They will say what they think you want to hear. They tell me all the time they never go with Japanese men and I’m sure they say just the opposite with a Japanese guy.
View all comments by pmmp
pmmmp, perfect! Glad to have you along.
Do you know if the Rainbows exclude Indians or blacks? I have an Indian friend coming over to visit, he’s very dark skinned and looks sort of black, and I don’t want to run into any embarrassments!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
@Crom: If they try to walk in alone they will sometimes be stopped. If they come with a white-skinned Farang it’s okay. This is horrible but true. Only a few GoGo’s discriminate like this so I wouldn’t worry about it. Pants Elk might not get in because he dresses funny but the rest of us will make it in just fine.
View all comments by pmmp
cb - I think they do. I know some middle eastern guys get turned down.
On cowboy I have been seeing a lot of indians in tilac and of course the group of bars with many lights seems to attract them as well.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
@pmmp - Interesting, and thanks for the heads up. That’s just awful! And here I am whining about my prospects as a white guy, huh.
Oh, does Pant E actually have to BE in the bar to get the hotties? I kind of just thought he has to stand in the general vicinity and they come flocking
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
SB - I’ll ask my buddy how he feels chancing it. He’s usually pretty thick skinned and and just laughs these things off. Thanks for the heads up!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
Australian hookers are much more egalitarian. Back in the mid 80’s I had a hooker friend who managed 50% of the West Indian Cricket team over a 2 week period.
View all comments by fanta
@fanta: Good girl! Egalitarian and commodious I would have thought.
View all comments by Combover
@Combover:
Yes, forever after I referred to her as Messalina Richardius Holdingius Greenidgius Maximus Gobbus.
View all comments by fanta
CB - Saw a group of Indian looking gentlemen being refused entry into Bacarra last week.
View all comments by riodon
If you’re white and don’t have half your face hanging off, you’re in with a chance. But the weird thing is, your own attitude and mood can give you the Look Of Death. I’ve spent as many evenings boiling with resentment at my lack of action as I have getting some, but I know this is entirely down to my own mood. Go into a gogo expecting to be treated like the sex god you know you are, and you’ll leave with the same sour face you went in with. I also prefer working alone - working the gogos with Bangkok Bad Boy is a life-threateningly depressing experience. He has all the suave charm of a bum after losing a streetfight, sweats like a pair of sumo wrestlers, dresses like a Bosnian gas fitter, hasn’t washed in running water since 1986, and thinks he’s the fucking dog’s bollocks. He does. Ask Penfold. We laugh at him behind his back (there’s enough room for a parade behind his back, with ample motorcycle parking). This self-belief (stories - his own - of his legendary penile dimension aside) affects all the girlies who come and rummage in his laps. Leaving me in my by now rather gay-feeling shirt seriously considering bottling the porky little fuck - one of my very best friends incidentally - in the ear.
So your own mood and the company you keep are crucial.
View all comments by Pants Elk
did everyone miss theline from pants elk:
“In Bangkok, you could strike out nine times out of ten and still get laid three times a night.”
Genius.
View all comments by bkk22
bkk22 - I was trying to ignore its beauty…
View all comments by sideshowBOB
… like I try to ignore Young Penfold humping my leg every time I’m in town, with “fuck me” written on his eyelids.
View all comments by Pants Elk
@CB, If you can’t stand rejection, may I suggest a trip to the Thermae on Sukhumvit.
Good luck.
View all comments by hanuman
CB: Being alone in an opinion doesn’t always mean that everyone else is self-deluded.
Occasionally it just means that no one else shares your opinion/experience, or simply that you’re wrong. It may be that you didn’t hear from others in the same position just because you’re the only one who feels this way.
I think the post was deeply flawed in its observations and conclusions, but I have nothing new or enlightening to add beyond what’s already been said.
I’d love to recognize all the really excellent comments that stand out above the crowd above, but it’s just too much hard work.
I guess the most poignant part of the comment string to me was when Fender wrote
I found myself nodding furiously in agreement.
I was stunned to see you come back in the next comment and say that Fender had it wrong! I’ve lived in Thailand for 4 years, and I can’t for the life of me figure out who the hookers are that are the source of your discontent. They all seem to be aching to take care of me! I only wish I had enough time and money to have sex with all the hot women who want to have sex with me.
The only two things that have ever stopped me from shagging the hooker of my choice on any day is (1) she’s on her period (2) we didn’t agree on the price.
The other comments that had me smiling and saying “Yeah, baby, yeah!” were those from Pants Elk, who is my personal hero. To be able to say so many correct things so pithily makes him god-like in my opinion.
Still CB, good job writing something and defending it to the end.
View all comments by Werewolf
Thanks WW.
Your post brought back some memories: I can’t say a hooker has ever refused to go with me b/c she’s on her period… though I wish they would! Nothing like banging away and then looking down and seeing blood smeared all over your rubber. Invariably it’s a LT pull and we’re at my hotel and it’s all over the fucking linens… thank god for the discretion of the Thai maid service industry!
If she doensn’t raise the, ahem, red flag, I feel all courtesies are removed. Next time it happens, if there’s been no warning, I’m shoving my dick right down her throat. She can tongue bathe her flow off my dick until it’s clean enough to go up her ass.
Now I’m wondering something: given that there’s a solid market for ATM porn, is there also a market for this type of thing, menstrual-to-mouth? MTM? Prospective acresses could be asked “do you do Mary Tyler Moore?”
Is it just too gross? Has it already been bled dry (555)? Or am I sitting on a gold mine?
View all comments by fender
@ Fender - Ive nailed a few street-rats that have left my silk sheets resembling Hannibal Lecters kitchen worktop before, but I never thought of taking it any further then sending the trollop packing and passing it off to my housekeeper as a heavy nosebleed
Ask SSB………. he has a penchant ‘alternative’ adult entertainment. Im sure that kind of grot will sell in Pattaya. Or germany
View all comments by Young Penfold
Hmmm, think I’ll just take a dump and add it to the rest of the crap written here.
I wrote of mirrors in my first entry. I guess this sorry lot of garbage that has been produced is the tawdry reflection on all of us, unfortunately myself as well for participating.
JM
View all comments by Jerry Mander
Hey Jerry - cheers!
View all comments by Pants Elk
@JM
Yes Jerry, one can only wonder what Freud would think of your reflection on mirrors.
View all comments by fanta
Oh yes, Jerry Mander, the guy whose sensibilities are offended by the non-use of PC-correct language like “sex worker” (gee, I always thought it was ‘entertainment provider’).
To paraphrase Bill S, “A ho by any other name…”
Whether you call ‘em sex workers, whores, bar girls, entertainment providers, hookers or go go dancers doesn’t really matter. The reality of what they do to earn a living is the same.
Find something real to complain about.
View all comments by Werewolf
Well Fanta, I asked Mr Frued and he was moved to draw my attention to the Eodupus complex. Like all of those who contributed to the discussion that put down the working girls, you are all *&()&%^^$#.
editor’s note: jerry. easy on the language punk.
View all comments by Jerry Mander
And so to the wolf. Thank you for your intellectual input seeing as there was a serious absence of such to the blog. Given you seem to pride yourself in the size of your vocabulary (aka your website writings), I can only assume the willy shakespeare reference will be reflected (there’s that mirror inference again) in your future tomes. ie monsyllabic utterances. Words do have values attached, you know this.
Engage the issue, not my sensibilities.
All the contributions are made about vulnerable people. The contibutors hide behind masks of false names and avatars of misdirection. Even Jerry Mander is a coward, but at least he knows it.
To sum up, this diatribe has been nothing short of shameful.
View all comments by Jerry Mander
Thank you Mr Editor. Your double standards are gracious.
I was a punk once. Nice of you to point it out.
View all comments by Jerry Mander
@JM
Given your use of the patronym ‘Frued’ I think your time might be better spent looking at what Freud had to say on Parapraxis in the Psychopathology of Everyday Life. I was also a little perplexed by your use of the term Eodipus rather than Oedipus until I googled it and found that Eodipus links pretty much exclusively to Pay-sites for pre-prepared undergraduate college essays.
Seems that you have ambivalent feelings about this discussion/site - “it’s not me, it is me” - so perhaps you might want to to take a quick but fleeting glance at the “mirror stage”.
Yours in self disgust and mother lust,
Fanta
View all comments by fanta
Hey, Jerry - you should know what a huge amount of amusement you’re giving us. Really - we’re all SMS-ing Manderisms to each other. You and Ato are very precious to us, and I’d personally like to extend my thanks to you both for all the laughs. Heck, “Eodupus” deserved a Catskills rimshot all to itself! Keep ‘em coming!
View all comments by Pants Elk
jm - explain the double standard please?
View all comments by sideshowBOB
So elegantly self-aware while the rest of us wallow in the pit of ignorance or self delusion.
So contemptuous. But then what do you do with that contempt?
Disgusted by your own participation in the discussion, you continue to return and participate (presumably increasing your self-loathing).
An unusual man… one who reads a blog about the ‘whore scene’ then complains about the discussion that ensues.
It’s lovely to know that you’ve read enough of my blog to have an opinion about it. I still can’t figure out whether you think I use too many big words or too few, accusing me first of being proud of my vocabulary then chiding my monosyllabic utterances — your idea of irony? If so, it’s a pretty weak attempt.
Keep it coming.
View all comments by Werewolf
PE- Catskills rimshot? Is there a new LB bar on the scene?
Editor- Can you sms me the language that was striken from JM’s post? Given what DOES make it through the filter, I can only begin to imagine the world-class vulgarity that would be deemed unfit for mass consumption!
JM- Are you always this much fun? Can I go on a bar crawl with you and Crom? We’ll walk in, and the first thing we notice is that all the girls avoid Crom like the plague. Bummer, but we’ll be okay; more girls for you and me! We make our way to some seats (girls bouncing out of our way due to Crom’s mysterious bargirl-repelling force) and check out the scene. But, uh oh, now a cutie comes up to you and starts massaging your thigh, and you’re turing into a combination of Woody Allen and Judge Turpin, lusting and hating and guilt-ridden and turned on and lashing out and lashing in and going on about mirrors and duality and double standards and, damn, you da MAN! Now we’re cookin’ with GAS and the girls are loving your rap and they’re all over us. The hottest of the bunch grabs your package and says “you go with me, you pay bar but you no pay me, OK na?” You dig your fingernails deep into the palm of your left hand as she leads you by the right to the S/T room upstairs. She’s so tight and so sweet and smells so nice and you pop and start to cry at the same time. Clothes are put back on but eyes don’t meet and words aren’t said, and 10,000 baht is thrown on the bed b/c that will help her get her miserable, pathetic life on track, and you rush back out onto the soi. On to the next bar!
View all comments by fender
So some of you do have a conscience. Good to see.
I felt alone in the moral minority. Glad to note some of you are moved to comment.
Fanta, thanks for the update on your google skills. One of your few talents I guess.
Pants off, happy to be of service to your sad and sorry day.
Elk, the double standard is that the editor cuts out my use of “mother fucker”, but allows you to have an avatar of child holding the word “cunt”. You might have missed that as the edit was made very quickly by the big brother. Cunt of an act really.
Wolf, your sarcasm is wasted here. You know I am right. Did you not write that “bargirls are people too”, or something to that effect? As for chiding, you need to re read what I wrote. I acknowledged your wordsmithing. But hey, lets not get chummy here. You are clearly on the dark side of this contest.
So boys, gloves off and lets get into it. I also find it entertaining. It means while you write responses, you are not hassling one of the girls you seem to dispise.
View all comments by Jerry Mander
Apropo of nothing, kudos to Crom for an article that’s sparked over 100 comments. Good stuff.
View all comments by fender
JM: If ‘bargirls are people too’ is the position you are trying to put forward in your comments then I withdraw from the argument. Anyone who reads my ideas often will know that I support that completely. I certainly don’t “despise” any bar girls.
From your limited number of comments (I don’t remember seeing your handle before, so I’m referring specifically to the string on this post) that’s not the message I was understanding from your words.
Initially I simply detected some squeamishness about words or labels which, given the context (TFS2M blog) seemed misplaced. I still see it as misplaced, but lets not go there again.
Personally I find nothing ’shameful’ about the discussion above; just an intense back & forth about the realities of an economic transaction, and whether the P4P scene meets people’s needs and expectations. Yeah, we’re talking about people when we discuss bar girls, and in another context I might think that’s important, but in the context set by CB’s blog the idea of ‘bargirls r people 2′ seems more a distraction that doesn’t need to be constantly discussed or acknowledged.
As your comments/responses to everyone became more argumentative I found it easy to be combative. In several instances I simply didn’t really know what your point was, but you sounded like you were looking for a fight, and I was happy to respond.
Perhaps I was too quick to reply aggressively. Sorry if I misunderstood and responded negatively to something I don’t actually disagree with, but — as you say — too late to get chummy now.
Feel free to have the last word here… I’ll go quiet now.
View all comments by Werewolf
Been way for a day so sorry I couldn’t respond, although it seems everything to be said about this has been said.
Anywyas just a few final thoughts.
EP - Quite true about the “mood”. I resent this
I should not have to struggle to maintain a good mood when whoring. That isn’t relaxing. My mood should be neutral or whatever I feel at the moment unless I’m extremely gloomy, which is rarely the case. I’m usually in a perfectly “normal” mood and far from gloomy. The fact that you keep on returning to the need to deploy some kind of social skill while whoring is very illustrative of my general point. But it seems we will eternally disagree on this so I suppose we just turn to whoring for different things! And that’s cool.
WW - Of course disagreement with me can mean I’m simply wrong or that others have had different experiences, and it’s interesting to hear about these experiences. Since this is all reports of personal experiences there is no real way to prove anything.
As I said in my original post, though, the girls choose you as much as you choose her through a host of subtle signals sent your way. If you only approach (or select in massage places) the girls who send you positive signals then of course you’ll never get rejected. I do believe most guys instinctively operate this way and only approach girls who send positive signals even while whoring. If you aren’t aware of what is happening you will have the feeling that you have as much choice as anyone, although if you stopped and thought about it for a moment I think most would realize that they have rarely or ever ended up with “tier one” whores, and that they have rarely or ever seen other farang also end up with “tier one” whores.
My entire post only really applies to the upper 30% of whores in terms of looks - of course the fishbowl girls are not in the upper 30% of girls so this won’t be an issue for the most part. The models lounge will often have a similar dynamic at play.
Of course, I might be entirely wrong and mistaken, I freely admit that. Anything is possible and these are just MY observations.
Anyways as long as people are happy with their whoring life is good!
My new approach will be to identify and isolate the 20% or os (in my experience) of “tier 1″ whores who judge people on their personal merits and are quite open to farang who are cool, and build up a roster of telephone numbers. Aside from that I will focus on the regular girls, who are fund and really cool - and in this patchwork way I will get what I wanted!
Thanks for the comments everyone!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
I love the emotional capital invested in the word ‘whore’. Not to mention its obscure origins and rich history. It’s a wonderful word that deserves to be used. The same is true of ‘cunt’. For that matter, I even have a soft spot for ‘motherfucker’, the brash 20th century New World, new money, tearaway black sheep distant cousin.
We have a rich and beautiful language. Let’s not dumb down and start substituting anaemic, generic, limited, bland constuctions such as ’sex-worker’. Shakespeare would never have done it, why should we?
View all comments by Combover
Hi folks,
On the topic of racism and some of the bars being off-limits, I have something to contribute. I went to SC along with a Thai friend (who was pretending to be Chinese) and didn’t have any problems wrt getting in. Although a couple of girls refused to go with me, there were others who were quite inclined to, including from Baccara. I finally pulled a pull-girl from outside Dundee bar, who gave an impromptu rendition of a hit Bollywood song by Tata Young, clearly indicating her familiarity with Indian customers. The next time I went to NEP and while going across R4 was politely told ‘Members only’. I told him ‘ya give me membership dude’ and began fishing for a couple of 100 bahts while he was looking expectantly, but then decided against it - why to go somewhere you are not welcome. Instead I went outside NEP and pulled a freelancer who was 9 with clothes on, 9.5 without and 10 in the awesome GFE I got. Long-timed her, bagged number, went for lunch movie dinner and more fun for another few days. Other than p4p, I also spoke with and got the numbers of many normal girls so don’t think there’s much of discrimination over there.
And also went to the Big Mango bar where despite SSB and pmmp not being there (do they ever show up for work haha)..I was treated extremely well by the staff..lots of friendly hugs and pool..
so yes, some places are ‘no entry’ for us, but many many are not.. so even I had the Tulip PSE
View all comments by NDN
CB, I’m black and have never been refused entry to a go-go in Pattaya or Bangkok - in fact I’ve been dragged off the street into many.
Thailand is not the most cosmopolitan country and there will be girls who are more reticent around guys who are not white or Japanese.
This means ultimately you will probably have more choice than your chum. But this doesn’t mean your pal will run short - especially if he’s hanging round with a white guy.
You will also get girls who zero in on him - whores who’ve been with punters of colour before and liked it. Contrary to what some might believe a fair amount of these girls will be atttractive and incidentally, although I don’t believe the two equal one another, light-skinned.
Although in my experience, not being white may leave you more prone to questions from customs and attempted police shakedowns in Thailand, in some situations it can help, like when you want to barter convincingly or when you want to avoid being pestered by working girls or katooey, who seem quite ‘chocolate-shy’. Also, although there might be more distrust towards tourists who are not white, you could argue there’s less resentment.
Personally I found Pattaya to be more ‘chocolate-friendly’ than Bangkok, with some darker Thais greeting me like a long-lost brother. But in my travels in Thailand I’ve found that if you look like you have money and smile, the vast majority of Thais, including working girls, will respond positively.
Having said, I’ve never been to a Thai MP, which would frankly be more up my street than a gogo, and I’m curious to know how I’d be received there.
View all comments by milo
I happened to have a working girl in my room yesterday when I was reading the comments about race. I asked her about her experiences with Indian customers.
She said she’d only had one (she’s worked in bar for about two years). She spent about 3 minutes telling in lots of detail what a nice guy he was.
She said that she knew some girls who worked in her bar wouldn’t go with Indians but that she wouldn’t hesitate to go with an Indian guy if asked again.
In answer to my question, she said that her (NEP) go go bar doesn’t stop anyone from any color from entering.
My sample size isn’t statistically significant, but in this case she was quite genuinely positive about the idea that, while some customers can be problems, it’s not related to race.
View all comments by Werewolf
Werewolf, she sounds like a nice girl with the right attitude. When Thais are hostile to Indians it seems odd to me since they’ve been exposed to them for so long and have things in common…
View all comments by milo
Any working girl I have asked said Indians and Arabs cum really fast.Says a lot about there culture I think.
View all comments by Mr Right
@Mr. Right: Wow! Brilliant. Well researched and such a logical and profound conclusion. Way to go man. Glad to have you on the planet.
View all comments by pmmp
@werewolf: glad to know that the girl had such wonderful outlook - perhaps an outcome of being exposed to working with people from different nationalities and cultures.
@Mr. Right: In that case, we should be on the list of ‘preferred customers’ for them - mai?
@milo: agree with the fact that there are many things common between Indians and Thai, but what is the ‘hostile’ thing you are talking about? If it is the ‘No entry for Indians’ policy of some bars, then they might have valid reasons for it - perhaps a large percentage of troublesome customers happened to be Indians, and the bar management decided it’s better to have a blanket ban - just like a Bank preferring to simply blacklist a particular location where credit collections are low. Overall, my experience was that of warmth and friendliness, rather than hostility.
View all comments by NDN
NDN - the thing is, I find it hard to believe that Indians are ‘troublesome’ in bars. i don’t think it’s the average Indian person’s style, anymore than it might be the average Swiss person’s style. I have had Thais say to me that they don’t like Indians and they think Indians smell, however. There is definitely a prejudice towards Indians in Thailand that seems to go beyond the bars.
View all comments by milo
It depends. There is without question low-leve prejudice against Indians in Thailand and as a group they are not really liked, which is somewhat ironic as Thai culture and cuisine is almost entirely based on Indian culture. But such things are rarely rational. Indians have a reputation for “smelling”, but farang also have this reputation, by the way, and I have never been able to decide if this is a genuine reaction to the un-showered backpackers and curried up Indians, however stupidly over generalized, or if it’s simply a reflection of an irrational prejudice. But farang are definitely seen as “smelly” too.
The Indian community in Thailand is commercially successful, much more so than the Thais, and has not really attempted integration, unlike the Chinese community, which has. So the seeds of resentment are clearly there.
That being said, there are many wealthy Indians who receive setellar treatment everywhere, and get the hottest girls (although not in the bars), which doesn’t really happen for farang of any stripe, so things aren’t all bad.
View all comments by Pierre
I have spoken to 5 girls over the few years I’ve lived here, 3 in the City and 2 in Pattaya, who won’t go with Indian guys because;
1) the aroma of spices
2) the 5 or more friends waiting back at the room to join in for the same price i.e. 5 or 6 for 1k
Arabs for the same reason as number 2 above.
View all comments by DerrinDo
dd - funny u mention that. when u walk lower suk at night or daytime u can hear the freelancers explaining to the towel heads only one guy or u can hear the towel heads trying to negotiate for their group sex fee. just sick.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
I can’t believe I missed this post when it first came up. I must have been on a bender.
If CB is still listening . . . I’m 41 years old, overweight, and average looking. By that I mean that nobody confuses me with Brad Pitt nor do they confuse me with Frankenstein. No better or worse than any other guy who walks into your average go-go club.
Number of times I’ve been turned down: 0
But I will attribute that to a couple of factors:
1. I don’t look at the hottest girl in the room and think that’s the only girl I would like to shag.
2. I try to have as much fun as possible when I go out.
In terms of the first point, to each his own but I look for a girl that seems like she would be fun to spend the next 6 - 8 hours with (LT). I have seen the hottest dancer in the club barking out crap at her co-workers and acting like queen whore and that makes my dick go limper faster than seeing my grandmother naked.
Is that girl turning down guys? I don’t know. I’ve never even bothered to try because I have no sexual attraction to her despite her physical beauty.
If I wanted that I would just fly up to Amsterdam and pay 50 Euro a go. At least it would be quick and I wouldn’t have to hear that grating Isaan yap voice that only bar girls who think they shit doesn’t stink get.
Like I said, my tastes are not everyone’s. Some guys might be into that. And I apologize if you are into that. It’s just not me. Go ahead and insult my type of girl as freely as you wish.
And it’s not like I go home with the uglies. I pull some of the better looking women. In fact, when Tilac first started having coyotes in the bar on Fri and Sat nights one of the bar staff (non-dancing) who is a long-term friend of mine told me not to even try because the coyotes don’t go with the guys. Guess who took a coyote out that night?
Again, I’m 41, overweight, and only semi-attractive. If I can pull a young twenty-something coyote dancer out of a go-go bar then anyone can. It’s about being fun to be around.
Just go and have a good time. Smile. Laugh. And if she still shoots you down, fuck it. Pick the second best. Or the third best. Or go to a different club.
I think the thing that sinks most guys in Thailand is that they come here with the attitude they had back home. Sixty percent of the girls won’t go with you? Well, first off there’s something wrong with the approach. Sorry to say it but I could take a one legged leper into most places and get a higher score rate than that.
And on the second point. I don’t go out in a bad mood - EVER!! I go out expecting to have fun. And nine times out of ten - even if I go by myself to the go-go’s - I end up having a great time. Just tonight I went into a Nana club I hadn’t been into in well over a year and the mamasan immediately recognized me and was hooking me up.
Why? Because a year or so ago - whenever it was I was last in there - I was fun. I made her laugh. I made the girls laugh. We all had a good time. During that trip I bar fined a few of her girls and I’m sure none of them came back complaining (in fact, several still call me) so I’m good business. And that’s what this is all about . . . business.
And that’s what works for me. Some guys have mastered the art of the short-time. It’s not for me but so are a lot of things. A lot of guys only go for the hottest of the hottest . . . me, I look for the person who seems like they can laugh and have a good time.
We’re all different and we all have different wants. Just find what works to get you what you want and refine that until it’s foolproof.
In the end, it’s all about your attitude. Both in making them want to go with you and how you handle any rejection.
Many thanks for the others who shared their thoughts. This was an excellent thread.
View all comments by Billy Bangkok
@Billy Bangkok -
Thanks for commenting - you were by far the most honest commenter and you shed a great deal of light on the situation, thank you. I want to make a few brief points.
You clearly state that you go for more average girls - with that approach, you’re right, you’ll almost never get rejected. My entire post, as I clearly state, is about what happens if you go for the hotter girls. I suspect that nearly all the posters on this site who claim they never get rejected simply go for the more average girls or go only for girls who show them interest, WITHOUT BEING FULLY AWARE THAT THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING. When I raised this point, most people did not answer - you did, and quite honestly. I appreciate that.
Yes, if you operate YOUR way, your batting average will probably be near 100%.
A few more points, Billy. I’ll try to be brief.
The major, central thrust of my post was that whoring should be relaxing and you shouldn’t have too put on too much “game”. You give an elaborate explanation in your post of how crucial and important adopting the right attitude is. You’re quite right. It is important. To me, this is absurd, and I wanted to point this out and hear some interesting perspectives on it. None, sadly, were forthcoming.
Most people here seem simply to accept that in the whore world in Thailand huge amounts of “game” and attitude are still needed without finding this strange or out of place. At first, this puzzled me. It no longer does. Clearly, most guys here are in your shoes; older and physically somewhat faded. Guys like this are happy - no, ecstatic - to be getting young girls under ANY circumstances and don’t quibble over what they need to do to get it. I didn’t understand this at the time I wrote this post. I appreciate and respect the fact that you can be so honest and objective about your own situation.
You see, I am in a very unusual situation in Thailand. I’m young, good looking, and able to pull hot girls back home. For guys like me, the Thailand whore scene looks very different. I wanted to describe what it looks like to guys like me and hoped to hear from guys in my situation. None, it seemed, were. I now understand better why.
So again, if you are a young good looking farang guy with cash and want to get the hotter whores, you will have a harder time of it than almost any Asian guy. There isn’t that much about this on the Net and people need to realize this, no matter how much some want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend this reality doesn’t exist. Of course, even in the whore world there will be some of the very hottest girls who will be delighted to have you, but you are dealing with a situation that is full of obstacles and is very different from what you might expect reading a lot of the stuff on the internet. Most don’t realize that most of the stuff on the Net is written by and for people in your shoes, Billy.
The second major point is that whoring in Thailand, as nearly EVERYONE on this thread admits even when trying not to, requires “game”. This is, again, counterintuitive to what many people might expect and for some people, kind of destroys the point. Clearly not to guys who are 41 and slightly overweight, but to other guys, yes, guys who can get normal Thai girls or normal girls back home. And again, normal Thai girls are great!
So that’s it - all the comments pretty much confirmed what I wrote in my original post. Yours, Billy, were the most honest, and that I appreciate. Thanks!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
@CB: Nonsense.
I’m 30, very white, and I do shag the hot ones.
Still maintain that you’re doing it wrong.
If you don’t want to make any effort whatsoever to be even slightly pleasant (because this is all that’s required, and if it’s an effort to be pleasant then you have more problems than we can solve here), hit the soapies. Several thousand hot girls right there for the picking, and you don’t even have to smile.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Gotta say your talking shit yet again CB. Im convinced your either BBK or BBKs 1 and only friend, giggling behind the screen together
Please never refer to yourself as ‘good looking’. I dont care if you can back it up by looking like Colin Farrell or Andrei Arlovski, that line makes you sound like a monumental turd. Im not saying you ARE a turd. You just came across like one.
Im 24 and have no trouble stepping out with normal girls that turn thai guys heads. Granted If i go to a soapie or Nana/Cowboy, I dont break out the smoking jacket and pipe, but still like to make an effort.
View all comments by Young Penfold
CB@ I have been rejected by the odd working girl every now and then. I have also by doing little more then sitting down, pulled girls off there customers who had already bought them a drink.(I’m movie star handsome though). Not trying to be a prick, but maybe your not that handsome?
View all comments by Mr Right
Yes, well, YP, not looking like a monumental turd to you is seriously up there in my list of priorities, and thanks for the tip on how to be more successful at it, but why oh why don’t you READ the post before you grace us with - your very welcome - commentary? It isn’t so much to ask, is it now?
I have said, again, and again, and yet once again, that what I am describing applies only to the “whore” scene in Thailand. I have specifically said that regular Thai girls - beautiful ones - are relatively easy for young, good looking farang to get. My entire point is that if you’re young and - sorry to use such offensive language, but yes, good looking - and that beautiful Thai whores require as much “game” as beautiful regular Thai girls, why not simply go for the regular girls? Thus the “…and it’s uselessness to many”, in the title post. Think about it Reflect on it. Dwell on it. Might help you produce a relevant comment.
BBB - I hear you. It’s hard to discuss personal experiences because it’s impossible to verify. As for being pleasant, I AM “slightly” pleasant, exactly. I don’t sport that big goofy grin that so many farang who have just read Culture Shock Thailand do, but I don’t like looking goofy and the Thailand “smile rule” is one of the biggest crocks out there. I’m pleasant. If I - or you, or any farang - want the really hot “whores”, we would have to work it. Hard. I know you deny it, and that’s fair, but I’m personaly not buying it. I have too much experience in this field. I’m not into working whores hard, because as I explained to YP, it’s easier and better to get the really hot normal girls.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
@CB: I see no sense in carrying on the yes-it-is no-it-isn’t game.
You’ve had over a month of people trying to help you. More than a hundred comments.
But like too many other people on this site these days, you’re not interested in listening to others - only repeating your own mistaken point, presumably in the belief that it will become true if you state it often enough.
You say that you don’t believe me because you have “too much experience”. I’d wager that I have rather more experience at this game than you do.
Your experiences do not match mine. I know you fervently wish that they did, but I can honestly tell you that they do not. If you refuse to believe me, that’s your choice.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
BBB - I agree we should probably leave it where it is. I doubt our experiences are all that different - I suspect it’s the blinders we wear that are. Anyways.
As for people trying to help me by explaining how I need to tweak my “game” in various ways, I remain dumbfounded by the general inability to grasp the central point of my post. I am smart enough to know when I am encountering a massive collective blind spot and need to retire from the field of battle. Cheers.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
yes-it-is no-it-isn’t games are so boring. However, a yes-I-am no-your’e-not pissing contest is oh so much more entertaining BBB.
If you please, give me time to set up my front-row lawn-chair, snacks, beer cooler and appropriate plastic sheeting before you begin. I don’t want to miss a moment of this.
OK… Ready.. piss away boys!
View all comments by Rene Descartes
I remain stunned by the fact that in the face of overwhelming rejection of your ideas that the only explanation that manages to find it’s way into your brain is that everyone else on the internet is too stupid to understand you, but you are smart enough to understand our weakness.
Un-fucking-believable.
Anyone who thinks it takes ‘game’ to get laid by a whore is the one who is missing the point. As said before, she wants to sell, you want to buy, the only thing at issue is the price.
The only thing.
No matter how ‘hot’ or how ‘average’ she is.
They’re hookers. Bring your wallet and leave your ‘game’ at home.
That said, what makes the Thai hooker scene more enjoyable for most punters is that you can play the ‘girlfriend’ or ’sanook’ game with the bar girls, which shouldn’t be confused with requiring ‘game’.
For most punters this is a BONUS, which makes Thailand more appealing than other more sterile hooker environments. It may be a tool for getting a better price. Usually, it just makes the punters happier.
But walk in with a sad face, bad mood, handsome face or ugly… doesn’t matter. Open your wallet and take home the hottest girl in any bar EVERY time.
Figure it out. It’s not that other people don’t understand you. It’s just that nobody agrees with you. Not due to some collective blind spot.
You’re just wrong.
View all comments by werewolf
“I remain stunned by the fact that in the face of overwhelming rejection of your ideas that the only explanation that manages to find it’s way into your brain is that everyone else on the internet is too stupid to understand you, but you are smart enough to understand our weakness.”
Kennyitis is contagious it would seem.
View all comments by Combover
cb - retire buddy. seems to be the best move.
View all comments by sideshowBOB
Gee… I was expecting a pissing contest between CB and BBB… seems every mutt in town decided to lift their leg on CB… this is a rough soi.
View all comments by Rene Descartes
rd - I dont think so
I actually agree with some of what CB says but the issue I have is the way he continues to say his opinion is the right one and the only one.
which is ludicrous…
View all comments by sideshowBOB
@CB: I didn’t say that I go for the more average ones. I said I don’t instinctively ONLY go for the hottest.
For instance, the other night I was in Raw Hide on Cowboy and the hottest girl in the bar was walking around the place like her shit didn’t stink and being a loud, obnoxious twat. Could I have bar fined her? Almost certainly. Would I ever want to? No.
That was what I was saying before; That’s not my type of girl. If that’s what you’re trying to pull when you go out then we simply have different tastes.
And the reason that’s my preference is because I’ve had too many bad experiences picking out the hottest girl in the club without trying to get a read on her attitude/personality first. It has zero to do with whether or not I could.
And that doesn’t mean that the second prettiest was average or ugly. She may be a stunner in her own right. And she may be exactly my type in which case I’m more than happy to take the second prettiest. I’ll have a much better time with her.
And I think you misunderstand the whole game thing. It’s not about wooing them. It’s about having a good time. Both for her and for you. Having a positive and fun vibe simply means that both of you are probably going to enjoy the experience more than if your only goal is to extract the semen from your testicles and deposit it into a condom which happens to be inside the hottest girl in the go-go.
But that was simply my suggestion on how to enjoy yourself more. It wasn’t meant to suggest you can’t get hot girls if you aren’t some master pick-up artist. You can be a total twat and still pull the hottest girls.
My general attitude is to be upbeat and positive so I was suggesting it as something you might want to try as you seem so downbeat about the whole experience.
The only possible reasons you would get turned out in a go-go are:
1. She’s on her period.
2. She’s already taken. She might be very deep into the sales process with another customer but her shift at the pole came up before she could seal the deal.
3. She has a fear of certain types of customers. Some girls have told me - though I’ve never seen it happen first hand - that they won’t got with Muslims and/or Indians.
Other than that I’m really unaware of a girl turning a guy down before. And believe me, I’ve seen some insanely hot women with guys who look like they’re knocking on death’s door and/or obnoxiously drunk.
I would really love to see what you’re doing where you only get a 60% hit rate because I can’t imagine any girl in a go-go refusing to go with a guy.
I’m sorry if I implied that you had to have game in order to get these girls. My bad. I was reading the thread and I was at a complete loss for an answer as to why you are doing so poorly.
As others have pointed out, there is no “game” when it comes to go-go girls. The only game is the girlfriend game which is something I happen to prefer.
But in the end, I think you might need to listen to what other people are trying to tell you instead of being defensive and telling some master mongers that they don’t know what they’re talking about. If I were in your shoes, instead of dismissing their advice I would be begging to tag along with them one night and ask them for some feedback on what you’re doing wrong.
View all comments by Billy Bangkok
Rene Descartes: It’s nothing new.
http://rawbangkok.com/2008/10/26/when-youre-used-to-rejection/#comment-354
View all comments by Werewolf
WW, I am “dumbfounded” because everyone is giving me “advice” on how to get whores when my whole point was that it should be easy and not something that “advice” needs to be given on, or else it’s meaningless. It’s like there is some weird mental cramp that is blinding people’s ability to understand the simple things I am trying to say.
Now that I’ve explciitly spelled out my position (although I don’t really see how it’s any more explicit than I have been doing up till now) Billyb weakly and unconvincingly backpedals, but his position (”game”, in the end is needed)comes through even in his “revised” version of his earlier “advice”. Whatever. I’m not going to argue about that anymore so people can take it or leave.
The main point I am writing is because you give a completely wrong - possibly dishonest, or simply utterly oblivious, can’t decide which - picture of the Thai whore scene when you say it is just about “money” and nothing else, and farang can pretty much get any girl they want. That’s complete nonsense and people who read this website and come to Thailand believing that will be in for a big disappointment.
There is enough on the web about the “dark side” of whoring in Thailand for farang (that lots of pretty Thai whores don’t like farang) that all you people are so determined to pretend doesn’t exist for an inquisitive person to get a pretty accurate picture, but not enough, in my view, and it isn’t as clearly and explicitly spelled out and focused on as it should be.
But this basic reality of whoring in Thailand for farang can be pretty much documented almost at random from on the net. On this site alone there is a long and fascinating thread about the Japanese in Thailand which makes the limitations for farang quite clear - and this on a website where it seems as if everyone is making heroic efforts to avoid looking this truth in the face! There is a snippet by, I believe SSB or one of the other “handlers” on this site where he describes a highly irritating (to him) experience in which some girl in Rainbow 4 very clearly and pointedly shunted him - but of course it wouldn’t do to dwell. There are dozens of other small snippets scattered around this site describing similar incidents - even one by you if memory serves,of a massage parlor girl rejecting you (could have been someone else). You claim these incidents are rare? If so, that is only because you guys hitting on truly hot whores is rare.
In todays Stickman column (November 30th) he is about as clear as can be about the issue. To quite Stickman -
“The 2008 vintage Thermae maidens come in three varieties - those exclusive to Asian customers, those happy to go with anyone and the final group, those the Asian guys consider much too rough and for whom farangs are the only option. The first group, those who will only go with Asian men (and yes, they will refuse farang but for a sky high offer) are fairer-skinned, more likely to be better dressed in a skirt or a dress and generally are prettier and more feminine.”
“Those who the Asians won’t touch, and who by default are exclusive to farangs, typically wear the uniform - jeans and a tight top. They tend to be much darker and have a typical Isaan look. I don’t care what anyone says. Far and away the prettiest girls are exclusive to the Asian men.”
But I guess, WW, it’s just ME that things this way and is refusing to be “educated” by you and others here even as in your more unguarded moments you let slip the truth. Dave the Rave on his official list of Nana bars describes some of the Rainbows as having girls that will not go with farangs. Tons of stuff on this is on Stickman, and surprisingly, lots on this site, too.
I applaud your efforts and the efforts of people here to maintain a positive attitude about life in Thailand, but not at the expense of reality. There are good things and bad things about the Thai whore scene and there needs to be more stuff on the net about how it’s limited and in what ways. To any young farang out there reading people like Werewolf and others you won’t get what you think (led on by these people) you will out of the whore scene in Thailand. It just isn’t built that way.
I was hoping for a great conversation with honest people in my situation who were able and willing to face an irritating reality - instead I get brazen and barefaced denials of something that the deniers themselves frequently admit to in quieter moments on other threads and which is widely if weakly documented across the web. You guys would have been more believable if you hadn’t denied so categorically and stridently something that pops up so repeatedly in discussions about the Bangkok whore secene that it must have some level of truth. Fact is we all know it’s true, it dances on the edges of our consciousness but most of us don’t want to stare it fully in the face. You’ve invested too much emotionally in the Thai whore scene to allow yourself to be challenged by reality. The Thailand fantasy you’re after might be threatened.
To any young guys out there looking for info on the web about the “wonderful” Thai whore scene, know that it has it’s limitations and probably won’t really work for you, unless you’re into less attractive girls or unless your Asian. As for the REGULAR Thai girls scene, well, that’s a different story altogether! That comes much closer to being “wonderful”!
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
We’re having different arguments now.
I’ve never denied that there are girls who won’t go with farangs.
You said that they number about 60%.
I say this is nonsense.
The Thermae example mentioned by Stickman today is absolutely true - I’ve been given the brush-off in there more than once - so I don’t go in there any more.
However, I disagree that the hottest girls in Bangkok are “unavailable”. Have you ever even been to a soapie?
If you spent your entire time here in Thermae, you might be able to argue that 25-30% weren’t interested, but 60% is nonsense. And Cowboy and NEP are another story entirely.
Could you please tell me the names of the Cowboy and NEP bars where 60% of the girls won’t go with farangs?
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Fair enough, BBB, but some people here have denied that, most recently and prominently WW above, who couldn’t have been more explicit in his denials.
I would actually revise my percentages downwards if I think about it - maybe not 60%, but from 30-40 percent, which to me is huge. But sill, willing to admit my initial figure somewhat overestimated the scale of the problem.
The hottest whores are not “unavailable” to farang, no, just many, perhaps the majority, are, and many can only be gotten with copious amounts of “game”, hence the the coupling of the two themes in my post. As for soapies, frustratingly, the hottest girls there can also reject farang, and it is not uncommon for them to (although again, many don’t)! Do you go the models lounges a lot? There is even a post on this site by someone being rejected in a soapie. It happens.
As for NEP, Rainbow 1,2, and 4 has girls which will often reject farang, similarly to Thermae. It has happened to me and I have personally witnessed it happening to several other farang on several other occasions. Doesn’t matter if you’re young, dress well. I’ve also had girls initially reject me, and then be won over by my attempts to “woo” them - before I realized what the deal was with farang and before I decided it was just too pathetic to “woo” whores. I would estimate the no-farang rate at these places at around 30-40 percent, generally the better ones. Considering that in my view at least the NEP girls are not that hot to begin with this really narrows downs the options.
In Cowboy it’s Sharky’s and Baccarra. Again, major issues with the hotter whores.
Yes, farang CAN get the very cream of the crop, but it ain’t easy and statistically it isn’t a crapshoot. Plus, it just creates a bad vibe - for me, maybe I’m just too senstitive - when you’re young and in shape and regularly pull normal girls to be snubbed by prostitutes who you turn to for recreation and who will cheerfully accept the most worn out, run down guy provided he comes from a country closer to Thailand, over you. It just spoils the subtle vibe for me, and I would suspect, lots of other young guys.
Normal Thai girls are great, but whores fill a particular void - and to have normal reality reversed and to live in a place where normal hot girls will pay me all sorts of attention but hot prostitutes will snub me is funny and odd and annoying and worthy of mention
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
Maybe your as ugly as your are boring and inaccurate CB, thats why your getting knocked back by whores?
View all comments by Young Penfold
My, my, YP, such claws! Wonder what’s getting you all riled up….oh wait, I have a pretty good idea. Reality.
Oh, and I thought one could be ugly and boring and still get whores. It’s all about money, after all. Oh well. One more fantasy down the tube.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
At last, some facts and some actual debate. Here’s mine in return:
In what is approaching three years of living here full-time, I have never been rejected in Baccara, Shark (I assume that’s the bar you meant - there’s no “Sharky’s” on Cowboy), nor in Rainbows 1, 2 or 3. I have been “discouraged” in Rainbow 4 by the preening Jap-style girls, not quite outright rejection (could have applied “game”, as you say) but enough disinterest to put me off bothering to pursue them, for much the reasons you state.
So we actually agree on something. Except the numbers:
In my experience they number about 1-2% in the Nana/Cowboy bars. I’ll raise it to maybe 5% if the bar is inexplicably rammed with Japanese boy band members. Not 60%, and not even your revised 30-40%. If you’re being rejected by 3 or 4 girls out of every 10 you approach, I maintain that you are either horrifically unappealing, or are doing something outrageously wrong.
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
Reality? hhhmmm…. In my 18months of pretty solid whoring in BKK, I have not once been rejected by a whore, and Im talking about girls from the Rainbow 1-4, Baccara and the like. I just havent.
40% eh? Ditch the Singha vest and sandals
View all comments by Young Penfold
BBB - well, thanks at least for seriously addressing the issue and admitting it is an issue.
As for percentages of rejection, our differences might simply reflect that we approach different girls in these places. I mentioned above that lots of guys only approach girls who give them positive signals, however subtle, or who in some way signal availability to them, without being fully aware that their “choices” aren’t as objective as the might believe and that their decision making is being cleverly channelled.
Is this happening to you? I have absolutely no way of judging that and there is probably no way we can debate that over the web. I am convinced, though, that it does happen to lost of guys, and considering how much psychological opposition there is amongst many farang to even admit that there is an issue with farang and hot Thai whores it is not in the least surprising that many will allow themselves to not fully acknowledge to what extent their choices are free.
Anyways that’s just one possible explanation for differences in our percentages. Could be you’re just that much more desirable than me. Which merely underscores my other point that factors other than money play a role = perhaps as much or close to as much as they play in the regular girl world.
But I doubt I’m any less appealing than most guys here - I get the normal girls readily enough. There’s just something with the whores, is all.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
*Sigh* Yes, YP, there are girls in the bars for everyone, we all know that. There is no reason to get rejected if you don’t want to. Thanks for telling us that we can ensure acceptance by only approaching uglies, but we already know that. Now stay on topic, please.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
@CB: Never denied it, and have written about it myself. I just think that it’s the exception, rather than the rule. What irks me about your post is lines like this:
There are thousands of white expats living here, and thousands more frequent sex tourists who would find that point laughable.
There’s certainly no accounting for taste - I’ve been out with guys who have practically identical tastes to me (YP, ssB and others - slightly creepy, since it usually turns out that we’ve slept with all the same girls), and guys who have completely opposite tastes to me (WW is a good example here, and I don’t think he’ll mind me saying so).
Maybe you have some bizarre subconscious desire for rejection, and hone in on the girls who you can tell don’t particularly like you. Maybe I’m a perfect physical specimen of masculinity.
Neither of those seem particularly likely though. I’d very much like to go on a gogo crawl with you and try and figure this out though.
One odd phenomenon that I’ve encountered is that I’ve sometimes been unable to make eye contact with a girl on stage, which one might assume is a rejection, but she’s then been enormously enthusiastic when I’ve asked a waitress/mamasan to bring her over.
Just because she doesn’t leap into your lap the moment you sit down, doesn’t mean that she’ll refuse to go with you. Don’t mistake indifference for rejection.
As a sidenote, the Thermae factor has a great deal to do with the fact that Japanese punters are apparently none too keen on shagging girls who go with farangs. If they see a girl chatting to a white guy, they’ll strike her off their shortlist. So those girls will refuse you point-blank inside Thermae when the Japs are watching, but might be perfectly approachable under other circumstances…
View all comments by Bangkok Bad Boy
CB: are you sure you’re going to the right country? Maybe your flights are going to Taiwan or Turkmenistan or something?
I’ve NEVER been rejected by a girl in a soapie, and I ONLY go to the model lounges. I’ve gone to non-farang soapies where none of the girls or mama/papasans speak ANY english and had a great time. Sometimes I’ve made eye contact, often not, and sometimes I grab a girl who’s just signing in before her ass has even hit the couch. Zero failures, and my jaw will hit the floor if I ever encounter a rejection here.
I’ve been to karaoke bars in Bangkapi alleys where I can say with 99.9% certainty that I am the only farang whose face has ever graced the place and had the hottest whores in the house begging (literally begging) me to take them home with me.
There’s only been one single time that I was bageled by the gogo dancer of my choice. (Not including times when she’s already working another customer, and those times I’ve always gotten a phone number and, if I was still interested, hooked up s/t a day or 2 later, saving the barfine.) What I remember with more regret are the several times I DID take the hottest girl in the gogo bar and she turned out to be boring in the sack (this has never happened in a soapie, btw).
I’ve been going to Bangkok on and off for 12 years now, from when I was young and cut with a 6-pack and full head of hair to older, pudgier and receding. The only factor that seems to affect the quality (and quantity, for that matter) of the girls I take back to my hotel is how much money I’m willing to spend. And, as I’ve said before, this is the same factor all across the world. If I’m willing to blow $2k on hookers in one night here in the States, I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to find myself a great freakin’ time.
I said early on that I though you were joking; I still have to think that you are, because p4p in Thailand is SO easy and SO fun and SO cheap that a big heaping pile of digital b.s. on your part is the Ocham’s razor rationale for your arguments. But by now you’ve invested so much time and effort into what appears to be a lie that I’m forced to either (i) believe that you believe that what you’re writing is true, or (ii) respect your commitment to the ruse. So be it. I said before in this string that the Thailand you experience isn’t nearly as much fun as mine. That (if true) is your problem, not mine.
But there’s a reason that I seriously hope you are joking, beyond the lack of truthiness of your posts. I’m hoping you’re just taking on a satirical affectation (see comment #1 to your article, by the way) because if your posts are all from the heart, then goodness gracious, the condescension! The posters on this blog, and particularly the folks taking the time to respond to you, aren’t the non-self-aware, mindless troglodytes you seem to think them. They’re quite sharp, analytical, literary-minded folks with thought-out, well formed opinions. The discourse on this blog is at a high level, even (especially!) when it’s in the gutter. The opinions in this thread are based on tons (and tons and tons) of personal experience. You’ve got your experience and your opinion as well, which is in the tiny minority, but you seem to think that the reason anyone disagrees with you is because we’re self-deluded. It must pain you to interact with such inferior intellects, but perhaps you consider yourself the Mother Theresa or Walter Annenberg or Morpheus or Jesus Christ of whoring, and see it as your duty to dispense Truth to a fallen whoring world. Come off it already, for crissakes.
View all comments by fender
@BBB “Maybe I’m a perfect physical specimen of masculinity”
AS JD would say, Thats funny, I like that!
View all comments by Riodon
BBB - so you think my position is too extreme. I can see that, but I think I exaggerate only slightly. Some of your points have some level of validity to them. Yes, it is easy to mistake indifference for dislike in the go go bars and yes, a huge factor in Thermae and like places is the girls need to stay in good graces with the Japanese men. But there is much more to it than either of those factors. I’d be more than happy and willing to do a pub crawl with you or anyone and see how things do down - I’d be stunned if things were very different from what I am describing here, in a good way though, so even though I’m positive I’ll be proved right I’d be equally happy to be proved wrong. Can’t lose.
Fender - I’m not talking down to anyone and I don’t assume anyone is stupid. If I did, I wouldn’t post here. Blind spots and the will to believe in fantasies exist even in the most intelligent and self-aware, and my offering those as possible explanations is legitimate. Maybe I’m the one with the blind spot. It’s possible, but I’m not being condescending by suggesting that people are often under the spell of delusions. Nor did I deny anyone’s experiences, wheras many have suggested that I am being dishonest. You decide which is more disrespectful. I believe everyone who reports different experiences than mine, it’s just that that seems easily explainable.
Furthermore, it strikes me that your entire position is disingenuous, if not worse, when you categorically deny that it has anything to do with money and it is virtually impossible to be rejected. This is just so unbelievable. It isn’t ME you have to content with. Stickman, for one, Dave the Rave, and lots of other stuff on the web, some of which I quoted above, essentially echo my views. You’re reducing this to just me and my “crazy” ideas when you have to content with a whole host of views similar to my own. This is what is so unbelievable about all you people who go on about NEVER being rejected and as if I’m nuts - it isn’t just ME. BB has just admitted to being repeatedly rejected at Thermae. Stickman has just produced a string of observations about girls in Thermae not going with farang after having visited with an under 30, well dressed friend. But according to you we are all daft. Okay, if the illusion is so important to you. What can say. BBB seems more anchored in reality at least, even if our positions are still poles apart.
You and your chorus of of deniers would sound infinitely more credible if you acknowledged that there is an issue here raised by many on the web, although you disagree with my description of its extent, instead of just trying to reduce it to something that is entirely my pet idea. Perhaps I err on the side of exaggerating the problem, but your categorical denials are ludicrously disproved by even the most cursory web search.
Also, it’s useless to go on about how you - or anyone else - has never been rejected by girls in various venues. It proves nothing. It’s impossible to verify what quality of girl you prefer - maybe you just naturally gravitate towards the sorts of girls that aren’t considered hot by Asian men, like Werewolf. Nothing wrong with that, but you’ll be convinced you’re with the cream of the crop (and they will be, for you) and that the best girls accept all farang. You will have a very distorted image of reality. I bet if I went with you and selected girls for you I can get you a rejection rate of over 50% at some go go bars and probably around 25% in the models lounge soapies, based on your description of yourself.
So again, I understand and respect that your experiences differ from mine, but the reasons for this are not necessarily that either one of us are lying. We are both accurately reporting what is going on - just different slices of the same reality, and repeating ad nauseam that you - and most people’s on this site - experiences differ radically from my own and thus I am decisively “disproved” is to demonstrate an inability to understand my position. My position can easily accept the accuracy of all this reports and remain undamaged. No, if I am to be “disproved”, it will be by other means, probably by doing a pub crawl. With a video camera.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
P4P Jesus it is then. Hallelujah! Mine eyes have seen the glory of the unattractive girls I’ve been sleeping with!
View all comments by fender
Hey, ugly girls need lovin’ too fender! You’re a good man.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
“I mentioned above that lots of guys only approach girls who give them positive signals”
Cromwell - Of course. It never ceases to amaze me the people who can find a girl who doesn’t give positive signals attractive, let alone ‘hot’. Well, I guess some people like to be tied up and abused, but I still don’t understand it. Am I weird that I just can’t get it up without a smile or a wink or anything except a glazed vacuous expression staring at their own reflection? They are about as hot as an inflatable. I don’t even get as far as admiring the tits or the arse. Its hilarious seeing someone proudly strutting off with a girl that was selected purely looking at the attributes from the neck down. Perhaps the double paper bag is at home? Perhaps a fetish for autistics?
View all comments by Cabby
Cabbie - Looks and attitude are two different things. Just because a girl doesn’t like you doesn’t mean she isn’t hot. That’s simply being honest.
As for only approaching girls who give you positive signals, of course this is for the most part how you should proceed in the regular girl world.
In the whore world, there is an underlying assumption that none of this should matter as girls should go with anyone who isn’t positively objectionable and willing to pay the going rate - i.e, the bar should be set much lower. In the Thai whore world, the bar is often set nearly as nigh as it is in the regular girl world, at least for farang, which is why you almost never see older, less attractive farang with hotties. Older, less attractive farang are almost incapable of getting the hotter whores, unless they pay well over the going rate, and even then rarely. This is not how whoring is supposed to work.
Since Thais do things in a more non-direct way they can “channel” a guys choices by either walking away from him so he won’t have the opportunity to approach or by hanging around making sure he will notice, by refusing eye contact and with stiff body posture which can have a tremendous psychological impact even without you noticing it, or by being completely unenthusiastic when spoken to. Most guys - protected by ego - will completely fail to realize that their decisions have been “channelled” in a very non-direct way, which suits the girls just fine as it saves everyone face.
I remember a post by Werewolf in which he describes going to Thermae and sitting down next to two “stunners” (with a friend) who he just couldn’t “click” with. He was puzzled at his inability to “click” and decided it was just his discomfort with with freelancer scene. In other words “clicking” was entirely up to him and didn’t have to do with the girls choice at all - this way the illusion of control is maintained and the reality that you’ve just been rejected, subtly, is not allowed to enter consciousness. Everyone - guys and girls - cooperates in the illusion as it preserves everyone’s harmony.
Sometimes the system breaks down and girls will explicitly reject a guy who didn’t heed the signals - seen it happen multiple times.
Not paying attention to who does or does not give you positive signals - that whole dynamic - is one of the prime reasons men go to whores, as an escape from that whole dynamic. In Thailand that dynamic is merely adapted to the whore world, with merely the addition of money, which is retarded. Older farang men who are ecstatic to be with any young girls don’t care because they’re just so happy they can get it any way at all. So it works for them. I get it.
I’m not in their shoes. So it doesn’t work for me.
View all comments by Cromwell Butterfield
A beautiful girl who can’t pretend she is interested in being with you is a starfish. It definitely isn’t hot. Nothing I hate more than a beautiful giving you the eye on stage who changes attitude in the hotel - waste of time and money. For people who are interested in self warming masturbatory aids, I’m sure it is fine if you remembered to bring a bottle of lube (and don’t want a bj, or shower together, or see her naked, or have her on top, or have two shots without bitching and arguing and pouting). For people who want great sex with hot beautiful girls its the first thing to look for. If a beautiful girl shows no interest, no need to even waste money on a drink. I’m grateful when the 16yr old princesses ignore the customers - some Jap or other dude who doesn’t realize or doesn’t care will pay bar and have a lousy fuck and put up with the scams, leaving the hot chicks for me. Sure, there might be some wheat in that chaff but but it isn’t worth looking for it. Just go to a different bar where you get the best of both worlds - there is no shortage and no reason to settle for second best unless your lazy.
Don’t go for the girl who:
- Isn’t interested (lousy fuck)
- Has a friend who wants to come too (lousy fuck or no fuck - your supposed to be satisfied with the ugly friend)
- Doesn’t have a mamasan trying to negotiate the price (scam artist and lousy fuck)
- Doesn’t have a mamasan wanting to know where you are going (15 or 16 years old, and probably a lousy fuck).
Do go for the rest of the beautiful girls, or someone who makes up for it in other ways. The goal is fun rather than ejaculation. There are a number of bars with some A-team girls who are beautiful and fun, and I’ve seen some of the guys they go with to know anyone can have it all unless they act like an arsehole.
View all comments by Cabby
“The better question is, whose needs then is this Alice in Wonderland Thai whore scene built to serve? Who does this work for? Well, for starters older farang men who would not be getting ANY girls at all in the regular girl world. Clearly such men can still benefit from this scene, although their choice is confined to the less attractive whores and they are effectively barred from the better ones.”
I challenge you to back this up with hard empirical evidence, sir.
I have seen too many counterexamples myself
In this culture a higher weight may actually be placed on counter-intuitive “good” bad features such as slow movingness either mobility-wise (as in the hunt or chase) or in actual responsiveness of the male member itself, or even impaired vision might be valued (better to control thee with), all of which is highly correlated with other higher order goods that our amazing human species values such as fidelity.
You have made good progress in your philosophical inquiry above.
Now you must retire to the laboratory and back these soft conjectures up with hard evidence, sir.
View all comments by Adrian Clodfist
“Whores with attitude, indeed! This subverts the entire rationale for whoring.”
Praise the Universe for these attitudes.
That the Thai sexworkers stay a bit human in the process is precisely what makes them so much more enjoyable than their western “collegues”, who seem to agree with your understanding of the rationale of whoring.
Fuck & Fun is much better than Fuck & Run
View all comments by mdking
I’ve never been turned down by any GoGo girl. Been here 3 years…
I believe deeply in woody allen’s summary of it all:
“Sex without love is an empty experience…but as far as empty experiences go, it’s one of the best”
I’ve played hard in BKK and now have a steady Thai GF who is far removed from the scene, a “good girl”.
Let me tell you it’s way better to have someone performing all your fantasies cos they love you than because of the cash you’re shelling out.
View all comments by JackTheRipper
Jack, if you ain’t been turned down by a gogo girl, then you just ain’t been hitting on the hot ones. If you limit yourself to fuglies it’s easy to never be turned down.
As a famous pick-up artist once said - men who don’t get rejected by women don’t GET women. Tweaked to the Thai go go scene, guys who don’t get rejected by go go girls don’t get the hot ones.
That being said, to the OP, yeah, welcome to the real world. It’s called the rule of supply and demand.
Hot girls who have CHOICE (who are in demand) - as the girls in the go go scene DO - will act EXACTLY the same as girls anywhere. They will be selective. After all, they CAN be. They have tons of guys vying for their attention, just like regular girls in a bar. Why shouldn’t they be selective?
Let me explain a few market principles to you. Value is relative to the specific marketplace you are in.
The “hot” girls in the go go bar will act JUST as haughty as the hot girls in RCA despite the fact that they are much, much less hot than the girls in RCA, because in the go go bar scene they are at the top of the chain of mens attention.
It may be extremely amusing to one night go to RCA or a nice club and interact with genuinely hot women who will respond to you, then go to a Na Na disco where the top girls are much less hot, only for them to act like they’re too good for you, but there is nothing crazy, irrational, or weird about this.
It can be a bit disorienting at first if you’re not used to it, but it is simple marketplace principles.
Shift venue (marketplace), and your relative value goes up or down dramatically. Your value as a man in a girls eyes is not intrinsic - it depends on context. How many hot girls are in competetion for your attention, how many other hot guys are there, etc, etc.
I party a lot in the clubs on Ekkemai and RCA and then occasionally go to skanky after hours places like Bossy, etc., and I run to this venue shift relative value change all the time.
In Ekkemai or RCA I’ve been talking to hot normal girls who are better than anything in Bossy and who show a great deal of interest in me, eye contact, etc, relatively little attitude.
Suddenly, in Bossy, the hotter whores (the term is somehwat laughable though because none of those girls are really hot) have these incredible “bitsch shields” up, as if they are the hottest shit to walk this planet and too good for anything. Just look at their facial expression. You can still get them, but it’s clear they are gonna make you WORK for it. They have a laughably inflated sense of their own worth.
Venue change. In Bossy, there are few hot whores, unlike say RCA where hot girls are a dime a dozen. The value of the hotties in Bossy skyrockets. Your value plummets.
Ridiculous, yes. No need to feel resentful, though. It’s human nature responding to marketplace rules.
About the Asian guy thing, that’s utter bullshit. It’s very consoling to hide your own shortcomings behind the idea that Thais are racist. But girls anywhere prefer the highest status guy they can get.
Asians have some advantages because they can better convey status to Thai girls because Thai girls are more familiar with their “type”, but any white guy with half decent “game” - i.e, treats himself with self-respect and isn’t needy with the girls - and can convey status and value to the girls will find himself in the same league as the hottest Thai girls.
Don’t run away from your own shortcomings with women. Larn to overcome them.
View all comments by GeckoWecko
One of the best things I was ever told.
Women (whores….it’s like reenting a movie). I don’t watch movies but I like what that guy said.
Women (and what you refer to as whores) are like a a movie you rent.
Sometimes you watch Cinderella, sometimes you watch Mickey Mouse, and sometimes you watch a drama.
It is up to you what you take off the shelf.
View all comments by H.B