As of yesterday pmmp turned over the keys to our beloved Nana landlords. One chapter closed. Possible another one will open soon. Given we are out I thought I would write something regarding our last few days and some closing thoughts on Nana. pmmp may also write something up. Possibly our opinions will diverge - possibly not. Such is life. I think we are both in agreement that no matter what happens next that getting out of Nana is probably a good decision. What I am going to write next may be news to some people and some people may disagree with it, I did not pass it by DTR for a sanity check, but given we have always talked pretty openly about the business - I see no reason to change that now.
Nana is in a state of decline. Simply put. Various people can say Rainbow bars are doing well and they probably are. Sure Angelwitch continues to pack them in but I have heard rumors that not as much as before but who knows. However most of the other bars in the plaza are experiencing multiple year over year revenue declines. Farang connection closed. Mercury for sale. One could buy Erotica I think as well. When Silver Dragon split into Mandarin Table Dance and some other bar - that other bar is still vacant. Big Mango’s spot now vacant. Rumor is one could buy Hollywood. I guess one could also buy Angelwitch but why would one pay a ton of money for a bar in a plaza that may not be around in 5 years? Part of the Rainbow empire is for sale. Sometimes bars are for sale because they want to make some money and get out. I reckon that is what Angelwitch wants to do. Other times bars are for sale because they are not doing well and want to pull the rip cord. For sure that is the case at both Spanky’s and Farang Connection. Farang Connection has no buyer and closed but Mr. Neon seems to keep Spanky’s going in hopes of selling it. The Rainbow bars are for sale due to a family feud. Empty spots in the plaza simply mean that bar owners don’t see the return on constructing a new bar in Nana. Which makes sense.
Just look at Nana in the daytime. Dirty, in need of maintenance and looking very long in the tooth. Look at Nana at night - motorcycles parked everywhere, hawkers roaming trying to sell crap, girls blocking entrances to bars trying to entice you to enter their bars and bar managers who don’t care about screwing the business of other bars barbecuing fish in the middle of the place. Not exactly a welcome site to what used to be a bustling plaza of booming bars. Back in the day when Big John owned most of the plaza he personally walked around and kept the plaza organized. I am sure not in a very friendly manner but he got it done. No motorcycles, no hawkers, no fish fries and he kept the place clean. Since Big John left this role was suppose to be filled by Nana Castle management but they have not carried that way of thinking forward.
Given all this when it came time to renew our lease we had already decided that there would be a point in which we would throw in the towel and leave Nana. We had some numbers in our head and had started to look at other options. In the real world, decent landlords would have told us a few months before the end of our lease what the new lease was going to be. Nana is not the real world. Our landlord waited until days before the end of our lease to tell us that our effective rent would more than double. Okay. So we are suppose to pay more money for a depreciating asset. This would be like paying a higher barfine for the ugly girls. Right. We gave them our offer and they laughed. We said we would move. They did not believe us until they actually saw us moving our stuff. My guess is they may be able to rent the place again but probably not for what they were asking us to pay but there may be someone out there who wants to give it a whirl.
The other problem with places like Nana is they usually require key money. This is the money u pay to get the keys so to speak. There is not a receipt provided for this money and no way to put it on your books. It basically is rent but without the ability to book it as rent. For some spots in Nana it appears that the key money doubled. So the costs go up but Nana overall continues to go down. If you are a go-go bar and have made your money many times over then you will most likely stay in Nana. Not really anywhere to go.
There were other factors as well. Being in Nana you can’t stay open past the overall closing time of Nana. As of late that has been 2 AM. Since none of the owners work together at all then this closing time thing is fairly fixed and limits our ability to open later. The escalator is now permanently broken. We know they are going to put in stairs. Supposedly stainless steel ones. Wow. Big deal. So we told our landlords we have lost the escalator which was a nice part of our appeal and yet they still will raise the rent? Once again. Rising costs. Depreciating asset. No thank you. They seem to have a hard time understanding the economics of that. We also highlighted that overall the business in the plaza is down but they seem to think that matters little. Why is this the case? Well - pretty simple. The overall landlords in Nana have only a certain amount of time left to get every baht they can out of their master lease agreement. Once that master lease is up, chance are highly likely that the owner of the land will choose to develop the property and those plans probably do not factor in a new Nana Plaza.
The current master lease is for 25 years. 2008, 2009, 2010 are the current years for the 3 year deal that landlords just signed. 2011, 2012 are the last 2 years left on the master lease. From what we can tell they won’t even discuss those last 2 years. So there is a possibility that 2010 is the last year but no one knows for sure. So to be asked to pay more for a depreciating asset that might be gone in 3 years seems pretty stupid. So this was an easy decision for us at the Big Mango. Get out of Nana. We all know that Nana won’t be relocated. It will just cease to exist. Sure - there is a possibility that after 5 years it will get renewed or that Thailand may experience a bust and the authorities turn to vice again to boost tourism but I am not one to take a chance on this and base our business model on quicksand. My guess is that after 5 years - Nana is gone. If I am wrong. So be it. Either way I am not deciding if I will be having a drink there in 5 years and paying a barfine for some ugly girl in Voodoo - I am deciding where to bet our working capital. The odds are not in Nana’s favor.
I also highlight another indication for the slow demise of Nana. The girls. Watching the movements of the girls now is like the futures market for commodities pricing. It gives u a glimpse into the future. Lots of girls are leaving Nana bars to work on cowboy or to join the freelancer scene. Not that Mango had a ton of girls but we had some nice girls and from what I can tell any of the ones who are staying in the bargirl business haved moved to Cowboy. I know some G-Spot, Voodoo and Playskool girls who have uprooted for Cowboy. They want to go where the punters are, where the fun is and where the bars look good. Pretty simple.
All of this could be turned around though. Nana Plaza could be better managed. The bar owners could work together rather than back stab each other. The Plaza could make sure all the bars are open and maintained thus giving the overall place a quality feel to it. Keep the exit ways clear. Don’t let individual bars overrun other bars. No motorcycles. Sounds easy enough but I doubt it will ever happen. Most bar owners won’t even talk to each other. Nana Plaza management only cares about collecting rent and keeping the power on. Nothing else. My only guess is because they know that deep down inside the place is gone in 3-5 years. Why invest money into a place they don’t have to knowing that at least 80% of the tenants will keep paying rent since they have no where to go. Just that simple. I can’t imagine a relocation strategy for Nana ever happening.
Okay. So now u know why. What is amazing to me is the stuff that happened on our last few days that continued to re-enforce our decision.
- This past Saturday we started to take things apart and move stuff out. We finished in the evening and locked up - also leaving the alarm on. Someone tried to break in to the bar and take stuff. They did not get anything and must have known about the alarm. For the 2 years we were there we had never had a break-in.
- On one of the moving days we had a blue table and one of our deck stools sitting down in the plaza near the Buddhist shrine. These stools are old and are in use by a few of the bars in the plaza. All the ones Big John used to own is my guess. They all have different vinyl tops on them. So there I was on the balcony watching the movers and watching our stuff. I watched one of the guys who works for the Crown Group looking at the stool and looking around to see who was watching. Sure enough when he thought the coast was clear he nabbed the stool. I went down and took it back and told him off. He played dumb. I did not take it farther than that since with Crown Group one would not be engaging in a fair fight.
- So the Plaza during the day is a mess. There is very little room to get vehicles in and out and very little time in which to do it in. We had three days to get trucks in and our stuff out. First off, Mr. Crown Group has to park his Mercedes in the Plaza every morning. Taking up a parking spot because he is too lazy to park it somewhere and walk. So right away we lose some space. Then there is the taxi asses from Nana Hotel who pay the security guard to allow them to park their taxis in Nana Plaza. So the whole three days was like a mini war battling the evil Nana forces just to get our moving trucks in and out to facilitate emptying the bar. The security guards and plaza management did absolutely nothing to help. During this time we saw Mr. Crown Group back up over a motorcycle and just totally ignore that he toppled it over. Some Thai delivery guys picked up the bike and you could see they were disgusted as they saw the Mercedes man just walk away without a care. These are the “Nana” people we are pretty happy to be leaving behind.
All in all it has been quite an adventure. It will always be the Nana history in my life full of colorful episodes and the early training in our Thailand bar biz escapades. In some sense I am bummed to have to close the Mango but I am confident we will get it opened again in a better location. Given this I probably will be glad to get out of Nana and I don’t think I will miss it much at all now. The future of Nana - well you decide but I don’t think it looks very bright.
Congratulations guys.
Looking forward to your next move.
Your unique style will set the tone and the pace of this next venture.
You exit with the savvy you developed to “USE” (profile, brand), “NAVIGATE” (sooo tiresome it must have been, at times) and “EXTRICATE” yourselves from this dump.
At the end of the day, Nana sleaze was no match for western business acumen.
I look forward to your opening.
View all comments by Thongsuk
More than doubled the rent a few days before the lease was up?
My blood boils when I hear this kind of crap.
What a fucking sleazy, piece of shit, scumbag.
Breaking his legs would be on the top of my ‘to do’ list.
View all comments by khun J
Can’t you tell us how you really feel?
Thanks for all the information. It’s great to hear some of what goes on up the soi.
It’s funny. I remember the first time I walked into the plaza in 1998. I was a Pattaya man at the time. I said to myself, “Self, what a dump.” I had one beer and left.
Now it’s my dump. I mean, what are you gonna’ do if you live here? Get a girlfriend? Please.
With that huge monstrosity they’re building at Asoke and Sukhumvit (and another one starting at the Asoke Station) I wonder if Cowboy’ll go first?
Try as I might, I can’t see the future. I would say this, enjoy it while you can. I’m glad I made it over when I had “pahwur”.
I’d hate to be back in the states doing all my 401(k) planning and looking forward to that day 14.3 years from now when I’d be “retiring” to Thailand. The way it’s going (dollar and all) it may soon be cheaper to live in the States than here. Not that money’s everything…
View all comments by Jack Dawson
The message from the Nana Plaza landlord is loud and clear.
Rent in Nana Plaza and be prepared to be extorted or abandon your investment at the end of the lease period.
Glad you had the balls to call his bluff.
I owned a company in the Nana area and bailed out.
Too many lowlife Thais to deal with.
My employees were making 20k/month… their new job, working for a Thai, pays 6k/month.
A shame.
View all comments by khun J
We’re supposed to be surprised by the revelation that the NEP is run by a bunch of greedy, conniving shitbags who can’t see any further into the future than next month’s rent? That the place has gone downhill from whatever starry past days your memory likes to invoke?
No matter which Old Dog you canvass in BKK, he’ll always regret the passing of the Golden Era, when the girls were cheaper, cuter, and happier to make you happy. When beer was, effectively, free, and an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect underpinned the efforts of the Working Girl.
I first discovered the NEP just over a year back, and, having never seen anything like it before, was totally mind-and-body-blown by the experience. It wasn’t exactly Disney World back then, either. It was dirty and sleazy and venal and obviously corrupt at and on every level. I didn’t care, and I still don’t. I don’t actually want the place to be cleaned up. The whole world seems to be being cleaned up and made safe (for us White Guys, anyway) and the shabby oasis of the NEP was (and is) a welcome relief from the control of our morals and behavior that happens everywhere else.
Yes, the landlords are scumbags, the stairs frequently reek of piss, the escalator is broken, the girls often spiky with attitude, the drinks overpriced. LET IT ROT. Look at the location - is it likely that such a prime piece of real estate is going to be redeveloped as a modern, cleaner whoremonger’s paradise? It’s all about money. All of it. From the smiles of the girls to the ring of the bell, it all comes down to Dead Presidents counted out in a back room.
For my part, I can weep into my (overpriced) beer for the Good Old Days (all of fourteen months ago) when the girls were cuter and the party never stopped.
And for your part, I’m glad you’re out. You were never sleazy and venal enough to last. You have too much class, but don’t let that lose you any sleep. And as for the NEP - let it rot. I just want to be there for the last Parade of the Freaks, when the crowd spills out onto the soi for the last time … because when the NEP dies, as it must, when the tatty neon sparks its last and the dozers move in, we’ll have lost something infinitely precious and fragile and human.
RIP NEP
View all comments by Pants Elk
jd - that had to be the longest comment u have written. Good points indeed. I am sure nana had to be better back in the day.
pe - clearly enjoy Nana for the spectacle that it is is much different than running a biz there. I knew that would happen after only being there a few weeks. Would always have customer say wow - u get to work in Nana. I would just smile and think yes, if u only knew. What is sad I guess is that the spectacle could continue but given the owners, the landlords and the fleas that tend to work for some of them - it will eventually bury itself.
View all comments by smitty
A while ago in Heavens Above I got to chatting with an Australian who was in liqueur sales about the economics of owning a bar in Thailand.
His take was that the only people making good money were the ones who owned the property. If you don’t own the property and are successful, then the landlord is just going to screw you until you bleed every time it comes to renewing your lease.
I thgink you’ll find that it’ll be exactly the same everywhere.
View all comments by Tokyo Joe
tj - Sure - owning the land would be awesome. Hardly is ever going to happen in bangkok in the bar business but I cannot agree that the nana circumstances are the same as everywhere else. Hardly. We have another bar. Good lease, no key money and the landlords actually take care of the place. Not in nana. They don’t maintain the power, the water, the air or the building. nana is a special case. My guess is the main issue would be the difference between having bars in red light districts and bars not in red lights districts.
View all comments by smitty
Expensive drinks, piss in the staircase, ladyboys, broken escalators, fire hazards, mafia never concerned me.
When I go out on the hunt, I’m looking for a beautifull girl to screw, expect more than a spoiled, disrespctufull, starfish routine and Nana Plaza didn’t provide that.
Four years ago, I made my last pull in there and felt like strangling the bitch.
I don’t need to be abused by some Isarn Hillbilly with a 3rd grade education and a smart mouth.
View all comments by khun J
I think it’s funny when farang tell me how Thais think.
I like that.
Furthermore, does the group of Thai men who will bitch slap their women include the guys I see at my school carrying their GF’s books and bags?
View all comments by Jack Dawson
@ jd: Thai man/boy thought as impenetrable epistemic mystery ;-?
Release that cold, waterlogged, tired, scrap of flotsam, (jetsam?)Jack and swim on your own. Bright side? The water around you has picked up a few degrees in temperature
“Furthermore” (you don’t need a subordinating conjunction here and what follows it is, in ANY event, “non sequitur to your first point, which was really more of a retort
Read the post, please.
While it may, as I freely admitted, have been an exaggeration its meaning was clear.
View all comments by Thongsuk
Beautifully written post, Smitty. I think one of the higher expressions of writing is when you can take a sad, ironic, verging-on-painful situation and describe it as succinctly as you did while taking away none of the illusion, nor the pain, nor the irony. Best thing I’ve read all day. While reading it, I could picture every square millimeter of parked-motorbike, uneven staircase and cat-piss-stained concrete, glimmering neon in rain puddles…just trying to walk through NEP was difficult enough, I can scarcely imagine moving a business.
I remember the good times I had at the Mango and of course in NEP, and I understand the mindset of doubling-rent last minute (then again, I live in Asia). The idiot short-term-greed mentality, that is only natural unless you learn long-term business strategy and see it work. The schism of effective management and best practices in business versus the quick-buck/baht. I have also had the pleasure of seeing the shock when they realize that yes, the deal really was NOT good value and you really ARE moving. I hope that the space where TBM was stays vacant, and if someone does open a biz there they won’t be getting any of my baht, it was a pleasure to view the chaos from the Mango balcony but I won’t patronize whatever opens there in future. Whereas if you guys open a new place it’d be my pleasure to stop by, wherever it happens to be. Keep us posted.
NEP has the advantage of being in a location well served by many, many hotels, but I too think it’s caught in a slow downward spiral. Sanuk, however, can always be found. As motorcyclists like to say: “keep the rubber side down and the metal side up.” Interprete that ANY way you like…
JtB
View all comments by Jack B
Hi Smitty,
I thought that this was a good post. The Big Mango Bar will be missed in Nana Plaza and I wish you the best of luck with your new venture. If you get a good location I think you will do good business. Nana Plaza is a tough place to do business and I believe that your concept would work much more effectively in a different location.
I have supported the Big Mango Bar from the very start and I sincerely hope that you can get established again quickly. High season is upon us in Banbgkok and therefore time is of the essence. The tourists are starting to arrive and suddenly trade is rising. I want to let you know that Angelwitch are on course to our best ever year in its history. This is the truth, you can ask Matt.
On Friday night Soi Nana was teeming with people. The main bars like Morning Night, Big Dogs, Hillary 2, Golden Beer Bar, and even Hanrahan’s, Lucky Lukes, and Bus Stop were all very busy. Nana Plaza will continue to draw the crowds but the customer base has transcended to tourists and infrequent visitors. Times are changing but Nana Plaza is certainly not dead and buried by any means.
I look forward to hearing news about your new location very soon. Get your skates on guys because high season is here!
View all comments by Dave The Rave
Another totally impartial report from Davetherave
View all comments by anonimus
At lesst he admits the locals have abandoned the place…it’s 100% a Tourist trap nowdays.
View all comments by khun J
jb - thanks for the kind words. It was a tough post to write but so much needed to be said.
dtr - thanks for the note but I amazed how you can continue to advertise the rainbow over Nana Plaza without at all discussing the other issues. Nana is nowhere as popular as it used to be - whether or not AW is doing well. AW is doing well indeed. Congrats. Where will AW go if Nana is gone? Any ideas?
A few busy nights does not make a comeback Dave. The low season was pretty bad but contrary to your knowledge we were doing quite well at the Mango. Our good takings though had nothing to do with the lease negotiations. Yes Big Dogs and Morning Night do well. I mean most bars that have been in business for over 5 years in the right spot do well. Go figure. Hanrihans is not doing well though. Everyone knows that. Just ask their employees. Lucky Luke’s is down year over year. Everyone knows that too. Same as Playskool. Admitting that Nana is now getting rammed with tourists is basically admitting it is going the way of Patpong. I would not think this is something to brag about. Kind of Nana’s Jumping the Shark moment if u ask me. Hence while most of the locals have switched to Cowboy. Along with the hot girls.
But Dave - you sound so bullish on the plaza. Given your go-go guru skills and your experience managing one of the plaza’s top bars - my feeling is you could put your money where your mouth is and open a joint in Nana. Big Mango’s old spot is empty. The one next to Mandarin Table Dance is empty. Farang Connection is for sale. Mercury as well. Probably Spanky’s and Erotica if u offer them some cash. The Plaza is booming Dave(hence all the empty spots and bars for sale) and with so many options for taking advantage of it I would think this is your next best move.
View all comments by smitty
@ smitty: (heh heh heh) *priceless*
View all comments by Thongsuk
Nice gauntlet, Smitty.
Given the giddy nature of DtR’s post, I’m sure he’s salivating at the thought of all that prime NEP space opening up, and probably too busy writing up business-plans to post further.
But I’m certain when his new place has its grand-opening, readers of TFS2M will hear about it first!
JtB
View all comments by Jack B
Smitty, if you read my post again I merely stated that the cusomer base has transcended. From my observations the tourist season is emerging.
I always believe that we should stick to what we do best. My forte is running go-go bars, so that is what I continue to do. After 10 consecutive years my record speaks for itself. I know Angelwitch is only one bar in Nana Plaza, but what you wrote was not correct. Angelwitch are on corse (for the second consecutive year) towards our best year ever. I think Nana Plaza will be OK unless NEP loses a couple of the really big guns. For example if the four Rainbow Bars and Angelwitch went, Nana Plaza would really be in the sticky stuff. However, while the Rainbow Bars, Angelwitch, Mandarin, Pretty Lady and Big Dogs continue to draw the crowds NEP will keep going.
I thought my post was reasonable, try not to be so defensive. We should all be supporting Thailand’s nightlife and not disputing it. Smitty, you are out of Nana Plaza, so chill out.
View all comments by Dave The Rave
oh dave. I think you are the one who has trouble reading. No one ever said AW was not doing well. What we are discussing is the future of Nana plaza, its current state and so on. A topic u seem to be commenting on without actually sticking to the subject.
What will happen to Nana after the master lease is up Dave? What will happen if empty bars stay empty? It is a discussion Dave. The reality is Nana is down. Yes - keep pointing to the busy bars Dave. It has nothing to do with the non-busy or empty bars or the sorry state of the overall place. Anyway. Keep pumping AW Dave.
I will cease to comment here with u. As most people do on the sites u comment on because u make pointless comments and rarely stay on target. Yes - I am out of the plaza. Big deal. Nor was I being defensive. I think the comments where u mention how AW is doing in almost everyone one of them probably look the most defensive. Anyway. Carry on. Go Angelwitch.
View all comments by smitty
Smitty, I was just correcting you because you said that you thought Angelwitch were not doing as well as before. I just wanted to state the facts about that. Nana Plaza is not the place it used to be, but it is not dead and buried. Various guys on the internet have tried to say Nana Plaza is history and that is not true. Nana Plaza is not as good as it was but ten just look at Patpong…
View all comments by Dave The Rave
Once again DTR you are the only person to taint this whole departure. Makes us feel we are really on the right track. Thanks.
Gonna continue off topic here because it’s fun:
“My forte is running go-go bars, so that is what I continue to do. After 10 consecutive years my record speaks for itself.”
I think it’s your job description that speaks for itself:
Asst. Asst. Asst Manager
My duties include:
- NOT being responsible for the bar, girls, shows, music, or security/police.
- being in charge of humping the leg of customers trying to watch the show so that I can tell them it’s another record year for Angelwitch.
- running a dynamic and unbiased website that is Firefox ready where I am a GoGo guru even though I don’t go to other GoGo’s or barfine. People tell me about other GoGo’s and I write it down
- lending my over 10 years of expertise to anybody interested even though I am still just hired help.
I know the AW girls, mamasans, DJ, the Security guy worked for us, and I know the owners. Please tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about here.
View all comments by pmmp
Far be it from me to play “referee” here but writing that “Nana Plaza is not as good as it was but ten [sic] just look at Patpong…” is a classic straw-man argument.
I think the more salient point is the future of NEP within the next five years or so. No one seems to doubt that tourists will head there in droves during the coming high season, and that well known brands like AW will do solid business with tourists, many of whom are new to LOS. The area has many hotels and the place itself is hidden away in a cul-de-sac.
NEP “not as good as it was”? I can attest to that. But with Woodstock, and the Mango, the place always had a neutral-ground locus where people could meet, eat, drink and plan. This strategy is more popular with expats than with tourists, who just want to be swept up in the neon and exclaim how cheap everything is in euros or yen. AW packs ‘em in during high season, great. But expat-residents are the ones who help level out the valleys of low season, and the landlord gets his cut every month.
JtB
View all comments by Jack B
I bet DtR would make an excellent Bingo Caller?
View all comments by day walker
pmmp, I am surprised in your attitude. Don’t forgt that I ran the two Hollywood Bars for six years. Eventually Johnny decided to let me run his bars and we had some excellent years there. I broke every record they ever made. Enough said.
View all comments by Dave The Rave
Furthermore pmmp, I am not one to get involved in virtual handbag fights. Just not my style. pmmp, you comments are very immature, I am very disappointed in you guys.
View all comments by Dave The Rave
Yes, I’m sure you were fully responsible for those records much like you are with Angelwitch having it’s best years (btw, I know you don’t get to see the books so you are just echo’ing what the owner is telling you. We know you’ve been fed bad information in the past so anything you say may or may not be true. Again, please correct me if I’m wrong here).
?? Nothing to say about:
- NOT being responsible for the bar, girls, shows, music, or security/police.
Please, let us know what you do at AW Mr. GoGo Guru? Please??
BTW, you don’t decide when enough has been said here. As long as you keep posting it will be entertaining. I will also add that if you are disappointed in anything I do then once again I know I am doing the right thing. Immature? This is a blog about nightlife in Thailand, maturity is not a requirement, duh!
(editor’s note: sorry to go so off topic folks but it does show you the kind of Nana people we have had to deal with and I’m sure some of you are getting a kick out of this. I know I am)
View all comments by pmmp
I’m getting bored with this. Time to go out for a beer.
View all comments by tripper
@ Jack B: Hi Jack, Thanks for that high-road-referee approach thing of yours. (As if they were to kids in the playground. Who do you think you are except someone who’ll claim referee status at the drop of a glove.
And thank god your GUESSES are about as factual as anyone else’s GUESSES when it comes to NEP or anything else about the future for that matter.
Your credibility tanked for me when you mentioned that toilet “Woodstock” in the same breath as TBM.
Worlds apart. From its burn-out owner manager to its short pours to its dyke-squad staff that sorry joint was a festering Petrie dish of all that was wrong with the Ferang scene. Woodstock 1992-97 was the beginning of the end. A shithole. (Already said that, right?) They just kept the corpse warm until there was a buyer for the lease.
I’m pretty stupid, so you’ll have to walk me through how “Nana Plaza is not as good as it was but ten [sic] just look at Patpong…” is a classic straw man argument.
How is it “classic” and what’s the “straw man” here from which it’s so easy to kick the stuffing. (As “referee”, you’ll be far too elevated a personage to “get into this” I expect. But I just thought I’d blow the whistle on this kind of hifalutin’ high-roading “pronounciating” of yours.
Re: Patpong
Drinks are cheaper.
Loads of hot girls.
Four or five GREAT bars.
I’ve NEVER been short-poured in Camelot or any of the other big bars.
I’ve NEVER had a non-performance scam pulled on me.
Far less rudeness from staff.
Far less drink/tip begging than Cowboy or Nana.
And there’s loads of bars. LOADS.
And the SOL.
Just point out to the dek serf how the hallowed and revered “Sons of Heaven” are able to sit there with one Singh Gold all night and tell the drink-begger to get lost.
Then call over your favorite rascal and cut your deal.
That’s it. No bullshit.
Up until recently I routinely got 1000 short times from the hottest pussy in the biggest bars. (And I assure you I am no Brad Pitt)
And I still rather enjoy the “night market”
The “criaik” of the whole place has depth and it has tremendous potential.
The rest of Silom instead of the “Night of the Living Dead” on Sukhumvit.
And finally, who needs NEP’s newly crafted escalator-toilet-mo-sie parking lot when you have the SOL
And really, Jack B how could you possibly “know” WHAT the “high season” will bring to Nana, AW and where the “droves” will go? If there even IS going to be a high season.
You don’t!
Re: Poor Dave
As far as DtR’s last 10 years are concerned, he coat-tailed on Johnnie, Roland, Ricky and KAT’s work. Hooked up with Paul Owen’s column and polished his own apple with free beer and site contributions.
DtR IS an honest man.
That’s what he has for sale.
That’s why he’s hired.
He keeps the ins and outs as straight as he can.
Taking on an air of referee here just makes you sound pretentious.
View all comments by Thongsuk
I think AW profits are up simply because the prices keep going up at inflation busting levels. Of course they will make more money if they charge more. What would be interesting to see is what the actual beer volumes are per year. My guess is that they are similar year on year. But with the extra margins they look better. Creative accounting does the rest.
Big Mango had the option to raise prices but this does not solve their problem and would quite possibly have created more.
Dave should come clean and tell his readers his thoughts on the whole plaza itself. But he can’t do this simply because of his status as an employee. Treading on toes is not something he seems able to do. Quite sensibly if you were in his shoes. But he shouldn’t mix business with pleasure and should inform his readers that all his site info is second / third hand and not collected personally. I also wonder why he never quotes lady drink prices in bars and bar fines / extras prices. This we all know is because he never actually participates in any of the things he’s supposed to be writing about.
Shame really as it could be a nice informative site with real info. Instead of an AW marketing tool with half truths and third hand info.
Heres to the New Big Mango opening soon. Not too far away though lads please.
View all comments by Khun Ripped-Off
I think, if I never made the point in the original post, this is NOT how I would want Nana to turn out, but DTR does not seem to get it. I know he will defend Nana and AW until the cows come home. Either way the place is not what it used to be. I don’t just mean dirty and rundown - I mean quality of bars and girls. Huge difference now between Cowboy.
pmmp and I tried to change this, but alas we are only one bar in a sea of many. As if DTR would have anything to do with this. Our point is DTR is a manager. No skin in the game at all but yet throws his opinions around like a flame thrower torching anyone in sight but not realizing where he is throwing his flames from. DTR - u kicked this off with a post on your site talking about how we bit the dust and how we never made money. Anymore than u can claim your AW numbers we all know that u will never see my books and matt will never show me his. Who cares. What matters is the way you portray yourself and the way u talk about others without a care to how it might affect them or their business. Real life stuff dave. U don’t have a business here so easy for you to say what u want. Let me know when u have a business dave. Then let’s talk about what people write and how it affects their business.
AW is a prime example of one of the ills of Nana. As long as my bar is good - eff the rest of the place because my bar is busy so who cares. Sure Dave. But when the plaza is gone - AW will go right along with it. End of story.
So as I mentioned before. It would have been cool to have owners in the plaza who cared. Plaza management who gave a damn. Alas - not to be. Other bar managers in the plaza who wanted the whole plaza to succeed. Your comments here and on your blog show that this is also impossible. So pmmp and I were naive. We tried to build a better mousetrap and thought we could somehow make Nana better at the same time. I guess we cared too much about that goal but in the process we learned, we grew and we created a loyal following. We will do our best to hold on to it and move on. Either way Dave - I put some skin in the game and I am also willing to openly talk about the good and the bad. My own mistakes as well. Maybe this whole thread is one of them but either way I think the skin in the game gives me some right to discuss this out in the open. Say what u want DTR - u really don’t have any skin in the Nana game. I guess I don’t now either.
View all comments by smitty
woooooooooaaw
pmmp is my hero!
Boy that has to feel good.
View all comments by FLuSH
A good post. It was great when Mango opened cus I was missing Woodstock and a decent place to eat inside the plaza. Times are changing and there is plenty of room in Bangkok for a nice place like Mango, but I dont think inside a gogo area is the best choice. You are right that all the gogo areas are tourist areas. Some local guys party there of course, but for guys who live here there are so many choices that it boggles the mind.
I wish I could say that Nana Plaza used to be so clean, organized and classy but I have been going there for 14 years and it has always been dirty, sleazy and chaotic. Personally, I think that is a good thing. Obviously it would be better if the owners were more respectful of each other and if the lease demands more reasonable. But if the place were to clean and sanitary it would lose a lot of its charm.
Any of you guys have any info on the future of Cowboy? Its physical location makes it obvious there are not many years left there.
View all comments by Khun Leigh
KL: We know for certain that spots in Cowboy are aggresively being acquired. You will notice that you don’t see new spots on Cowboy appearing in your local “businesses for sale” directory. You see listings for Nana Plaza all the time on the contrary. On Cowboy you just hear about it later. What this means is that some larger groups have first dibs on spots that open, mostly because of their influence and connections, and the larger groups are currently sucking up anything that opens up before word hits the streets. Major cash for improvements and expansions have been happening and will continue to happen as GoGo’s like Baccara post 200,000+ nights.
We are also hearing about longer lease deals. Overall, I think that the groups investing in Cowboy by their actions give us the best indication that Cowboy will live. They are certainly more in the know than I am so seems like a reasonble conclusion to draw. Once again, quite the contrary to the situation in Nana. Of course, there could be bigger players than the Cowboy players that have their own plans.
View all comments by pmmp
pmmp,
Thanks for the info. If Cowboy continues to expand and improve, they could handle many of the Nana gals if the worst happened and they closed the Plaza. Many Cowboy bars already have built a 2nd floor that is rarely or never open.As a local guy, not many of my mates will go to Patpong(too pushy) so the fate of Nana and Cowboy are of great interest.
View all comments by Khun Leigh
Another person happy about the closure of the Big Mango Bar is the lady who has the Burger stall at the entrance.
Her business is booming now that you have handed her the title of ‘best burgers in Bangkok’.
Open up again soon lads. I’d rather chomp on a burger in your bar, than stand in the street eating a burger surrounded by LB’s!
View all comments by day walker
It’s 22 years since I first set foot, bum, etc. in Nana Plaza (Woodstock, as it happened). I don’t get there much anymore as I don’t live in Bangkok anymore. My last time, I made it to The Big Mango. Only time as it turns out. It was early evening. The most notable staff were three, S, M, L. Each one beautiful and pleasant. I happened to get to enjoy the company of S. By contrast, I was in Angel Witch an evening or two before. I enjoyed no one’s company, though I had lots. The show was unimaginative and the service girls pushy and plain, a service lady who must have been somewhere nearby my first night so many years before blowing cigarette smoke in my face. Over the past few years, I had been in Angel Witch a few times. It has generally not been good, for the same reasons as this time, particularly the pushy service girls, but I fell again for the web propaganda that it manages to provoke.
I looked forward to The Big Mango on my next trip. Well, that’s not to be. Hog’s Breath was already gone. Those dreamy, pulsing afternoons in Richard’s long, long gone; the Lollipop orgies way over; my low capacity for nostalgia keeping me out of Voodoo (I loved you then and I sorta love you now, girls). Maybe Pretty Lady, ever the grotty, sexy standard, will get me into the Plaza.
I’m keen to see where Mango lands so I can go again.
View all comments by ancienttimer
@Daywalker You don’t mind the occasional monkey on your shoulder but you don’t like LB’s lurking over you, what’s the difference?
View all comments by hanuman
Difference….. the Monkey was cheaper.
- and less hairy.
Sex is pretty much the same though.
View all comments by day walker
Let’s hope they double the rent for DTR’s AW, and by the way does his job of assistant assistant assistant manager come with a uniform? If it does, it must look like a monkey suit. Dance little monkey, dance!
View all comments by hanuman
@ Hanuman.. I think my monkey is higher up the food-chain than DtR.
View all comments by day walker
@day walker; I agree but we are giving DTR way too much publicity. He might start to think that he’s important.
View all comments by hanuman
@H… DtR is getting lots of attention recently.
The latest I heard was that NASA want to speak to him
- They are interested in the Space between his ears.
View all comments by Day Walker
Angelwitch may or may not be doing record business. If it is doing so well then why is it for sale? Rarely does a performing asset with a future come onto the market. Why hasn’t it been snapped up? I won’t be holding my breath waiting for Dave’s reply.
View all comments by Wombat
wombat: Good point and certainly don’t hold your breath waiting for dtr’s response. We certainly don’t open the books to our cleaning lady. Same here. He is not privy to any real information about the bar, just what the owner tells him. He doesn’t do any ordering of booze or inventory/stock checks and he doesn’t do payroll or have any view into overall expenses. He can tell you how the PA system works though.
View all comments by pmmp
I heard that Nana will be a UNESCO World Heritage Site…
View all comments by Young Royal
Older people always tell me things aren’t as good as they use to be, and as I have grown up I have started to notice things aren’t as good as they use to be. In UK, America, Thailand… Governments, Schools, Hospitals everything not just Nana Plaza. There seems to be a slow degradation of everything.
View all comments by Young Royal
Nana is the ICC
ศูนย์ วัฒนธรรม อีสาน
the isaan cultural center
View all comments by smitty